Episode 3
===

Guest: ~, ~

Introduction to Redlines by OutOfArchitecture
---

Guest: ~represent the typical employee of that company.~

Cecillia: [00:00:00] I got an internship,

.

The terms and conditions of working were, it was gonna be an eight hour workday Monday to Friday, and it would

~ uh,~ office work and there would be no contract,

you~ ~~you know, ~is obviously a red flag.

the cherry on top is that we're told that if something happens to us during,~ um,~ this, ~you know, ~workday, ~like ~ we are not allowed to tell the hospital where we were working and we're not allowed to give any details

and. We don't have insurance anyway, let alone a contract.

Alif: in there was a lot of fear speaking up ~ uh,~ in fear of retaliation it's a very small circle. Everyone, our professors are good friends with those architects.

in

Cecillia: I feel like I was scared. I feel like if I said something, then it would look bad on me, which in hindsight is crazy because was exploitative and abusive

~ ~~, ~

Introduction to Redlines by OutOfArchitecture
---

Guest: ~or I don't ~~represent the typical employee of that company.~

Guest: This is Redlines by OutOfArchitecture.

The Mission of Redlines
---

Guest: The experiences that [00:01:00] isolate us in our working world are also the stories that can unite our community and allow us to heal. In this series, we dive deeper into the core issues that plague the design profession and evaluate how they result in everyday conflict, discomfort, and workplace turmoil.

The Mission of Redlines and the Hosts' Background
---

Jake Rudin: We are your hosts, Jake Rudin and Aaron Pellegrino, the founders of OutofArchitecture, a career resource network for architects and designers looking to find greater fulfillment in their work and help navigating the many challenges within the profession. Through our work, we've spoken with thousands of individuals, all with unique pathways and experiences.

Erin Pellegrino: Too often in this work, we encounter stories of struggle, tension, and suffering. Redlines seeks to bring a voice to these stories. Those privately endured in a school or workplace, but often clouded by shame, self doubt, and the questioning of one's professional choices. With each episode, we will ask a member of our community to share their story, we'll offer some guidance and advice, and discuss [00:02:00] ways to move forward.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed or replaced with pseudonyms. Their stories, however, are all too real.

Introducing the Storytellers: Cecilia and Alif
---

Jake: In this episode, we have two storytellers joining us.

The Unpaid Internship Abroad: Expectations vs Reality
---

Jake: Cecilia and Alif, who are at the suggestion of their university professor, took an unpaid internship abroad during the summer. They would quickly learn that the firm intended to treat them not as architectural trainees, but rather free construction, working 11 hour days with no training safety equipment or site supervision. We'll learn what transpired under these conditions and just how far the academy is willing to go to protect the image of star architects and professors at the expense of students, Cecilia and aif. Welcome to Red Lines.

Sharing Personal Experiences and Hopes
---

Jake: What are you hoping to achieve by sharing your story with us and the community today?

Cecillia: ~Well, ~ [00:03:00] Well, I

am hoping that these kinds of experiences,

~um, ~

are first of all talked about, but also

experiences do happen and you, your life is put at risk. You can be taken advantage of. And no matter what the selling point is, it's not okay and you don't have to endure it. Your future career, is not at stake if you endure it and it's okay to talk about what happened to you.

~ Um,~

Jake: Thank you a Cecilia. Do you have anything to add?

Cecilia: Yeah, thank you. And it's bringing back a lot of memories 'cause it has been while. 'cause we have been working. I still think about that, that internship that we did. And I, I hope that our story will teach,~ uh,~ whoever listens to this to show them that these exploitative behaviors are not okay. And,~ ~ we need to stop making excuses for them. And it's time to, we talk about it because it's a cycle. And,~ uh,~ we see the years above do it, then we do it, and then the years below follow [00:04:00] our years. So rather than framing them as learning opportunities or rites of passage, we need to start looking at them the way they are.

They're just exploitative.~ ~

Erin Pellegrino: ~more So why don't you, you know, tell us briefly about what you experienced and what you came to share with us today.~

Cecillia: ~Yeah, so me and my friend came to share our, story about our internship we did one summer in a well-renowned firm in Madrid, and the exploitive labor practices that they, had us go through throughout the internship and what that cost us in terms of both mental and physical health, and as well as what we, you know, learn from it and what we wanna continue thinking about and talking about.~

Alif: ~Yes. Um, I just wanna mention that El and I did our internships together, which was something that was the summer that I was really excited about because the summer before I had interned at a large corporate office in New York City and I learned a lot, but I definitely wanted something a little different to work at a smaller, maybe more boutique studio and also work on something more exciting experimental. So a lot of high hopes for this. And I felt that, um, the studio that we worked at was the perfect place for what I was looking for. And also it came out a recommendation from a professor that I worked really closely with. Um, so I had really high hopes for the experience overall. ~

Jake: ~Sounds good. May I make a small suggestion as we take a little pause here? Um, I know you guys are trying really hard to hit all of your points, um, but at the same time, you guys know the story so well. So~

~I'd love, um, for Aaron to ask that question one more time and for you guys just to like take .take 10 minutes, give us the summary, just like paint the picture from start to finish. Um, it can be one of you, you can take turns a little bit or one of you can sort of give some of it and the next person can give some of it. But, um, I think we're gonna ask the questions, um, that we have outlined to help fill in those gaps. So anything that you miss in that story, we'll be sure to capture. But, um, we don't wanna like necessarily have to walk you through each point because you guys, you guys have the flavor of this already. So, um, let's do that one more~

~time and let's just let you guys Yeah. Give us the story and then we will dive in and ask questions, ~

~um, both off of that list ~

~and then also things that we might, we might think about in the moment.~

Erin Pellegrino: ~And you could give us the background that you're comfortable sharing because I know~

~you.~

~mentioned sorry cat, um, I know you mentioned like you wanted people to know that like you're at a big, You're at you know, a university, you're coming from. You're at an American university, coming from abroad, all the pressures, feel free to pepper that sort of stuff in here.~

~So, I will ask again, or I'll ask the same question again, but basically, ~

Cecillia: ~so you kind of want ~

~the story,~

Erin Pellegrino: ~Yeah, give us like the overview of the story, and then what we'll do is with those, the questions that we sent you we'll then~

Alif: ~And~

~yeah, I think maybe you wanna start first. Maybe we can tell our different sides of how we ended up at that internship~

Cecillia: ~Okay. Okay. ~

Alif: ~and then Yeah, ill try not to be like forward~

~and try to be. ~

Cecillia: ~Okay. ~

The Struggles and Challenges Faced
---

Cecillia: ~I'm just gonna be, I'm just gonna be real. Okay. ~

~I'm just gonna be how I am.~

Erin Pellegrino: ~Love it. I love it. All right. for, for~ thank you both for, for joining us here today. we're really grateful that you're here to tell us, tell us the story. Um, so why don't you start with just telling us what happened?

Cecillia: I was in my sophomore year and my professor, who I. Loved very much looked up to,~ um,~ kept talking about this one firm, super cool niche firm, like artsy firm that did insanely experimental work, was like breaking, ~you know, ~the barriers of architectural thinking, So obviously that really intrigued me and I was like, okay, well,~ well,~ to be a great architect, I have to go to this firm.

I have to work here. So then,~ um,~ he wrote me a recommendation letter, which I later realized that I did not need to have or give or send anywhere, mainly because,~ uh,~ this,~ uh,~ firm that was a [00:05:00] well renowned firm in Madrid, doesn't look at any of the portfolios or really,~ um,~ anything that you send them to see if you're qualified.

They just want, I. Workers, they just want workers that will do the work that they give and not speak about anything else. So I got an internship, .

The terms and conditions of working were, it was gonna be an eight hour workday Monday to Friday, and it would be,~ uh,~ office work and there would be no contract, ~you know, ~you know, which is obviously a red flag. ~Um, ~but I didn't realize that in the time you could say that I was innocent, naive, but also you could say that I was 19 years old.

~Um, ~so then. I go to the internship and I also realize that my friend Cecilia is also going with me.

Alif: ~ I think, as our architecture students, ~ I interned during my junior year. And this was after interning at various places or larger studios in New York. And I had a certain expectations of what internships would be, [00:06:00] but I wanted to try something a little bit more experimental. And I thought that going to,~ uh,~ a place like Spain,~ uh,~ and a lot of my favorite architects are from there. A lot of my really,~ um,~ relationships I had with professors were also from Spain. So Spain, I thought it would be a great place to start,~ um, just explore like the work and learn from have professor. He wrote an email to them and~ I was delighted when I heard back that they were looking for people. And at the time I had put together this whole portfolio that I sent over, but as Elif has mentioned, that don't really look at the portfolios. And

Cecillia: And so we get there and we,~ uh,~ quickly realize that it's not gonna be an eight hour work day. It's a 10 to 11 hour work day. ~Um, ~realize that, they had also said that they would be providing residents, and this residence doesn't have any windows.

It's basically a studio,~ um,~ that has no windows, basically has, ~you know, ~really terrible plumbing. I think very poor internet. I, know, as residence is a residence and we're,[00:07:00] ~you know, ~told to be grateful because, ~you know, ~to make great architecture, you have to suffer is something that we've heard often.

It's ~like, ~okay, no problem. ~Um,~ stay here for eight weeks. It's okay. So then, you~ you know, ~Monday comes and we go to this, to the office, which takes an. An hour and a half to commute to. And once we get there, we realize that this office is actually a shipping container with no bathrooms. ~Um,~ it's, it's a tiny space with eight people already working in it.

There's no room for any more people. But, um,~ um,~ we're offered, uh, AKA without any option to do anything else, is to work as a construction worker to help build one of,~ uh,~ their offices or, we don't really know what it is actually. They never told us what it is, but it's something that we're building at a construction site.

So okay, so go to the construction site. And,~ um,~ we are not given a helmet. We are not given any vest. We're not given boots, which I guess boost here is like a big [00:08:00] thing to ask for because there's no clean water.

~Um, ~it's in the middle of summer, so it's like~ like ~degrees Celsius in Madrid. we are supposed to bring our own lunch to this construction site, and we're also supposed to be very discreet and not make much sound because ~you know, ~the other neighbors don't know what's going on. And besides all of this, ~you know, ~the cherry on top is that we're told that if something happens to us during,~ um,~ this, ~you know, ~workday, ~like ~if we fall, if we pass out, if something cuts us, all the other things that can happen in a construction site, they will drop us off at the hospital and we are not allowed to tell the hospital where we were working and we're not allowed to give any details and. We don't have insurance anyway, let alone a contract. So we're basically non-existent as far as legal is concerned.

Add Narration - Erin
---

Non existent. [00:09:00] If you're like us, you'll get goosebumps hearing a student say that they're feeling non existent. If you're like us as well, you'll barely be able to comprehend that this story actually happened. But it did. We've already covered, in just two episodes of this season, allegations of exploiting foreign graduates, institutional racism and sexism, and now, outright endangering the lives of young architects.

Young architects that are led to believe they must be grateful for whatever opportunities and hardships they have to suffer in order to become great architects.

Alif: There was zero mentioning of a health agreement were entering on tourist visas. And I should have seen it. It's only obvious in hindsight. I was just so excited about this new experience I was gonna have. it turns out when I was on site that[00:10:00] whoever I thought was the human resources manager was just another,~ um,~ worker their side job was to organize the in inflow and outflow of interns. And it was also interesting when I realized that 80% of the workforce were made up of interns.

They only had ~like ~three to four full-time workers and one engineering or construction manager that would literally yell at us in Spanish. a lot of us, uh,~ uh,~ come from all over the world. So obviously we dunno Spanish, and after a while we just got used to the yelling or just agree with what, whatever's being said. it was, it's strange because during the time I'm like, wow, this is, this is what it's like, this is what I need to endure to a better architect, to be more creative and. We lived this,~ um,~ crazy 11 hour workday life where we were super tired each day, but I just thought it was, we were toughening up ~ and I actually ended up not staying the full time, um, because I through, I actually got a pretty serious, allergic reactions to the insulation foam because we were not wearing protective coats. And this is also a turning point where I decided that I, just can't do it anymore. Also because we didn't have health insurance, so I was just worried that, uh, something worse could happen as well. ~

Jake: Thank you both so much for,~ um,~ for sharing a little bit more about your experiences.

Reflections on the Internship Experience
---

Jake: ~I mean, ~it's impossible to [00:11:00] overstate,~ uh,~ ~you know, ~barely even to summarize, let alone overstate are coming from,~ uh,~ a university training you to become architects. And as part of that process, it is expected that you will go and learn and educate yourselves by, by working with others. ~Um, ~the fact that professors have recommended to you,~ um,~ to take this work on unpaid is, is one thing and certainly not ideal, but the conditions that you're working in,~ um,~ are not even less than ideal in many ways. They're, they're illegal, they're, you know, touching on issues of, ~um.~ Visas touching on issues of safety and health concerns. I, I don't even know where to start. ~Uh, ~I'd love to learn a little bit more about Can you tell us about the conditions that you were working in and how this compared to your expectations going into the internship?

Alif: I did a couple internships before in my previous years, and they were a bit more corporate, so it was actually very comfortable. We were, [00:12:00] we were paid on an hourly basis,~ well,~ actually, quite well for New York City, and there was a formal orientation program they had sent out,~ um,~ a great, ~you know, ~document about the type of types of work we'll be working on.

And I had a mentor at, work and in a way I did learn a lot I was curious about urban, urban planning at the moment. So I worked on kind a planning site, so it was pretty much,~ uh,~ what I expected and then going on. To my internship in Spain, I obviously didn't expect the exact same conditions just because I knew I was working in a smaller studio.

And also the internship was explicitly,~ uh,~ unpaid even though they did provide residence. ~So, ~but I did, was still expecting working in some sort of studio, working on things that I was trained to do, which is,~ uh,~ working on concept designs, rendering many things with ~like, ~it could be like model making, but like small scale model making and working on CAD drawings, like on the computer. And what was a shock to me was [00:13:00] this, although they did give us the option to work in the studio, it was, the conditions were actually pretty horrible. There were no light and it was in a shipping container in backyard I remember the first moment, I had like strange conduction issues where I tried to charge my laptop and I would feel static go through me because I feel like there was no ground. ~Um, ~all these reasons basically was why I chose to work on site. And I thought it might be a good experience to build and.

Erin Pellegrino: And just to clarify though, you actually weren't even aware before going and traveling to Spain that you would have the potential of ~ ~working on site. So it's not like you brought boots or~ ~goggles I understand it's very hot in Spain in the summer, but even just, you know, appropriate clothing to protect your skin from, work shrapnel.

Alif: I think it was pretty obvious in the clothes we packed. ~'cause I remember we, I, I remember, um, lemme rephrase.~ I remember [00:14:00] El and I were just wear the, the worst clothes that we had because we knew that it would be shredded to bits at the end of the day because of how much dust and like sweat we would have.

Cecillia: I remember buying shitty T-shirts just so that we could use there and. Naively, I just t-shirts. Like we were, I think beyond, you know, even~ you know, ~being aware of what to wear or bringing what, what to wear. Like there was no~ Like ~introduction to what we were gonna do. It's like,~ like,~ oh, now you're going to grind metal in the middle of this,~ uh,~ uh, concrete platform with zero safety,~ uh,~ and with a two minute training.

And, oh, like this is just what every day is gonna look like from now on. That's it. Not what you should wear. Maybe tomorrow bring this, here's a helmet, here's goggles, nothing.

Alif: ~They~

~did~

~for a~

~fact. ~I remember.

clearly being. Told to bring water. I think that was the one thing [00:15:00] they stretched because there was no clean drinking water on site, so we had to buy bottled water ahead of time and carry with us to the site as well as we would also make clear that we need to bring food.

Add Narration - Jake - Cecillia and Alif have arrived in a foreign country expecting to work with a boutique architecture firm, work with famousarchitects, learn new skills and exdperience a foreign culture. Instead they have been forced to work on an unsafe work site with no health insurance, no visa, no safety clothing or equipment and not even any water. At this point I want to know what was the day to day experience on sie like.
---

Jake: At this point, Cecilia and Elif have arrived in a foreign country, expecting to work with world renowned architects they've heard so much about during their education. Working with a boutique architecture firm, these famous architects learning new skills and experiencing a foreign culture. Instead, they've been forced to work in an unsafe work environment with no health insurance, no visa, on site with no safety clothing or equipment, and not even access to any clean drinking water.

At this point, we want to know much more about what this day to day experience was like.

Jake: ~Tell us about what the site was like. So you've arrived, you know, have you even met with the, these like famous architects at this point? Um, you know, what were the interactions like and, and what was it like getting, getting out to the site every day?~

Cecillia: It was really interesting. ~Um, ~from our [00:16:00] residence, we would take an hour long train and then a 40 minute bus to get to the site. Then we would walk, I think around 10 to 20 minutes. I forget exactly what it was. There was this really janky metal door, like a garage door that our construction manager, who I don't think had the,~ uh,~ legal requirements to call themselves a construction manager, was in charge of everything.

Our construction manager would open this huge metal door and tell us to go in there really quietly because he didn't want the neighbors hear that there are workers going into this site.

When we got in, basically the site ~um. A two floor. It was, it was sort of developed, it was~ it was a two floor office building and there were basically a lot of different kinds of, ~you know, ~metal beams, metal columns. I think there was a lot of insulation foam kind of scattered around all over the place. We were told ~you know, ~to, step in and wait [00:17:00] until our, so-called construction manager would come and tell us what to do and then when he would arrive, like Cecilia said, would speak in Spanish and yell at Spanish at the other full-time employee and then yell at us in Spanish.

And then just ~kind of ~scatter around these,~ um, like, uh, ~tools for us to use without any training, no understanding of what we're about to do. Basically we would just be told, okay, now you're gonna cut these metal beams, this,~ uh,~ measurement for the next five to six hours. ~Like, ~so that's what we'll do.

Alif: the interns would stay in the same residence and. On site, we would be given like different sorts of tasks. And I remember ev every week was slightly different, but I remember, and I actually worked on some sort of furniture item for their house, I remember. It wasn't clear what really we making [00:18:00] until the end, but I just remember there was a lot of repetitive tasks involved and a lot of carrying,~ um,~ heavy objects, which was definitely not what I expected to do. so we were instructed to cut insulation foam a hot wire that we kind of~ kind of ~built on the spot our construction manager and. Basically, me and Cecilia spent, I think two to three weeks cutting insulation foam that we, again, didn't know exactly what they were gonna be used for, but we didn't have any masks on.

Cecillia: And we were ~kind of ~just in this corner insulation foam repetitively, I think for, 10 hours a day, 10 to 11 hours a day. ~Um, ~and then it ended up being, that part of it was gonna be used in the building, but part of it was going to be used to build this abstract conceptual furniture that, architects wanting to design for their house.

Alif: And also thinking back, we actually didn't get to meet,~ um,~ [00:19:00] the star architects until much later because they were actually on. Also a little bit of a surprise. ~Uh, ~ I thought we would get to meet them on our first day, you know,~ you know, ~be introduced to their studio, their work, get a little tour maybe of the, the house or surrounding areas.

Cecillia: I remember them one day coming into the construction site and everything stopped. And obviously construction manager ran to them and ~you know, ~introduced them. And there was zero introduction to us, no reference, no introduction to us by name. There was no, ~you know, ~here are these people. It was just, oh, okay.

So we, we just have to kind of like be quiet and wait for what's gonna happen next. And I remember all of a sudden, ~you know, ~there was a moment of, okay, everyone gather around because you're going to be given instructions to do these things. And there was this almost ~like, um, ~composer like moment where, you know, this architect just like~ like ~gathered us around and like ~kind of ~instructed us with his hands on what to do[00:20:00] and then just ~like ~told us to disperse and then we were just ~kind of ~running around , doing exactly what he said.

So he would just be firing these commands to us and we would just ~kind of ~nod our heads and just run around doing exactly what he told us. And then if we did something wrong, he would just yell at us. And it was the craziest day I think we ever had of just running around trying to make sure that they were happy and pleased.

I think that was actually the day I, my leg got scratched by a metal piece and I was debating with Cecilia if get tendinitis and if I should go to the hospital, but then I think we decided against it, ~ um,~ which was, ~you know, ~stupid. say the least.

Alif: , I remember those moments when so clearly because everyone a. You just ~kind of ~forget whatever's happening. You just start listening intently to whatever they're saying. And it's like their words are gold. And, um, you become really appreciative that they're on site and you're about to learn so much from [00:21:00] just their practice. And yeah, in hindsight, it's all coming back to me where I remember the foam that we were using to why it took us so long to create these furniture was were made to cut from like recycled pieces. ~Like ~so old, it wasn't even new foam pieces that they ordered to, to make this, but was from old, like existing.

And they have ~like, ~they were dirty, they were all these shapes, so we had to recycle them to make them into like square blocks almost. that's

what kind of made it a much longer process.~ longer process.~

Erin Pellegrino: ~And so I mean at this point, you know, if you're talking about getting A cut on your leg from the metal Cecilia, you're talking about, you know, using this really dirty foam that it sounds like ended up being one of the reasons that you, you left because you were getting a, such a bad reaction to this. And I, I guess I wonder. that time and kind of where you were in your career at that point, you know, this professor had recommended this to you, you were second and third years, respectively. Do you feel like you knew any better than to just do what you were told? Or why do you think that you think that there continues to be this endless supply of people willing to kind of bow to these Starkitects?~

~I mean, that's kind of two questions in one, but I think I'll start with...~ Do you feel like you knew any better or like you had to keep going?

Alif: I think for me it was definitely a turning point because third year I'm just a little over halfway through my five year B arc. And this is a point really have to decide after this point, you know, if I wanna keep going and~ you know, ~soon have to look for a job after I graduate and decide if I wanna be a licensed architect.

And I think all these internship [00:22:00] experience were just steps in helping me confirmed that is really the path for me. And I realized that this internship definitely affected my decision and I'm no longer in architecture as a result of some of these experiences. but in the moment I realized a lot of, it's almost stubbornness where it's almost like a competition myself. Like, can I withstand ~ Like, ~these conditions? Can, am I tough enough? And it's something that's almost drill into you in architecture school from first year. Like,~ Like, ~can you endure? we all know it's,~ uh,~ can be stressful or painful, but someone has promised that it will result in something, right?

That you will be this well experienced architect. You'll build these amazing structures. And I think I had this internal turmoil myself at that time, decide, am I cut out for this? And I wanna prove to myself that I, I can and I'm strong, but at some point during, during my experience, again, nothing is enough.

And I [00:23:00] just realized it's like, what's, what's the point when I don't even have my health?

Add Narration - Does architecture need to be this way? To get a B. Arc do you need to endure, do you need to suffer stress and oain, do you need to sacrifice your health... just to be able to create amazing structures. Why does this cycle perpetuate and why do students contiue to endure..
---

Alif: Like I need to figure out what's my priority at the moment.

Erin Pellegrino: And now a question we ask ourselves often at Out of Architecture. Does it really need to be this way? To get a B. Arch. or any degree in architecture, do we really need to suffer like this? All of this stress and pain. Do we have to sacrifice our health just to be able to create meaningful structures and work for famous architects?

Why does this cycle perpetuate? And, how do we as architects continue to endure these things without questioning them?

Cecillia: technically, of course, your intuition knows better when you're exhausted and you're inhaling a bunch of fumes, you . Cut your leg. But I think so much of your perception of what's going on [00:24:00] is influenced by the power dynamics at play, which is one that, ~you know, ~your professors have talked about this firm that now you are working for as one of the best places to work, a place that's breaking through limits of architecture and is going to be the biggest thing ever.

Right? There's a lot of, making things sound better than it is or, and also making you feel like you are suffering for a greater cause, so you feel like you're a part of something that's going to be amazing. And then the second part is that you, Need the credit of having worked at this place because you're already there.

You're working for this place in order to get a job somewhere else. But also you don't want to cause something that could end up having an influence for your future career, where these architects might talk about you poorly or[00:25:00] you might get some sort of, ~you know, ~bad credit on your name and therefore lose a potential future opportunity.

you really are under a lot of influence and are under a lot of, perspectives that you don't know any better there. You don't know how to get yourself out without causing any problems your future self. ~So.~

Alif: This practice is not isolated to this one studio or practice. It's actually quite commonplace in a lot of places in Europe as well as in Japan. So at the time, a lot of my classmates also took and paid internships in various places with various different types of conditions.

~Uh, ~a lot of them had long hours as well. So I, at one point I didn't feel like my experience was that different or isolated in some ways until I started reflecting back now, just, I just felt that it was a rite of passage in a.[00:26:00]

Jake: After you went through this rite of passage, what stopped you from,~ uh, you know, ~sharing this experience in a broader format until now?

Alif: I

actually

some time documenting our daily lives I think I wrote it so that I don't forget somewhere down the line that I knew, maybe one day I get to share it, but at the moment I was. Entering into my fourth year of school, I, I'm still had close relationships with that professor as well that recommended me to go to the studio as well as I'm looking for an internship for the next year. And then it just didn't feel like the right time and there was a lot of fear in speaking up sometimes,~ uh,~ in fear of retaliation it's a very small circle. Everyone, our professors are good friends with those architects. it just felt like it was, there was definitely a lot of,~ uh,~ this huge power dynamic happening.

Cecillia: I feel like I was scared. I feel like if I said something, then it would look bad on me, which in hindsight is crazy because was exploitative [00:27:00] and abusive towards me, but I was scared to speak up about it, which says a lot about what kinds of strength and, ~you know, ~empowerment we give to students versus these kinds of labor practices and how we're more okay with them doing these things than a person speaking about what happened to them.

And especially because it was unsafe and our life was put at risk. So I was definitely scared, but I did definitely spread word of mouth as much as I could because I wanted everyone to know about it that I knew, and for them to spread it as much as they could so that no one went through it by going there without knowing what was happening.

~So.~ I try to spread it that way, which kept it somewhat anonymous, but I never felt like I could speak about it publicly or in writing

because of the fear.

Erin Pellegrino: Did you ever tell the

professor what happened?

Alif: I remember there [00:28:00] was,~ uh,~ someone else that interned with us and that she left, the internship early to intern for that professor instead. so they must know there was something going on, right? Like why people are actually ending their internships early. But I, I never directly talked to the professor about it just because they were such close friends. It didn't feel like my place to, to tell that story, or because , it is a common practice, especially in Spain, to have these types of unpaid internships. So maybe it would seem more as a norm then

Erin Pellegrino: That's fair too I think a lot of people listening and myself, I can relate to not wanting to , challenge in a lot of ways. the notion ~or the way that a lot of ~the star architects are painted in school. Who am I to say that that experience is bad? , I think it makes one question your experience and your identity, and I remember feeling like there's a lot of shame wrapped into it.

, I can't make this work. Why? but I don't wanna, I don't wanna necessarily project that onto you, but I think you've done a really great job articulating to us [00:29:00] The struggle of the position that you were in, both in your career and the precarity of being abroad not having the expectations of the type of work you were doing, and then trying to marry that with, what do you do when you come back from an experience like this and have to finish the rest, the second half of your education and the fear that if you speak out, it will follow you, is terrifying, and I think, unfortunately, very relatable.

Jake: Yeah, in fact, I had an internship,~ uh,~ with a very famous architect in Italy, and at the end, I had had such a poor experience, that I left on, what I would consider to be less than ideal terms,~ um,~ but felt that it was the right thing to do that for . Firm actually did reach out to the university and ~uh, ~said to them like, how dare you send, ~you know, ~a, a student like this to us? And what I was really shocked by was the university's response. And [00:30:00] in this case,~ um,~ the, person who was the director of the program in Rome told the firm, how dare you treat one of our students this way? And was able to ~kind of ~of stand up and, and back me as an individual. But what I still find incredible about that is I would not have expected them to do that, mostly because of the ethos from the professorial side that says, we have to suffer for our art. And that that is what makes you,~ uh, you know, ~worthy of continuing to become,~ uh, you know, uh,~ alloted, uh, high design architect. So that was an interesting experience, but it's very relatable to the one that you're sharing now because I do remember being very afraid to tell any of the administration, any of the professors, and, aside from a couple of my close friends, really anyone else, um, within my year.

ther Interns
---

Jake: I want to ask about the other eight interns that were there with you. [00:31:00] You said that you were a huge part, if not the vast majority of the workforce. You came from all these different places, you had all these different backgrounds, why do you think other people stayed?

Internship Experience and Power Dynamics
---

Cecillia: So we were 8, 2 12 interns, and surprisingly, not surprisingly, a lot of people would come in, realize the situation and leave. We were one of the privileged people actually who could decide when to leave and leave. other interns, you know, they were from of,~ you know, ~a range of different places like Slovakia, Sylvania, Italy, India, Turkey, I think there were people from, yeah, Bulgaria,~ um,~ Romania, so.~ so.~

In the,~ um,~ landscape and map of Europe and countries they were in, maybe so-called less developed countries. So I think that did play some sort of role in the power dynamic and relationship between these interns and well-renowned firm in [00:32:00] Spain.

The Struggles of Interns
---

Cecillia: ~Um, ~some of these interns were there for their Erasmus or were there because they needed a work credit in order to graduate from their college, and they had to be there for at least six months or so.

without doing those full six months, they were not,~ uh,~ going to get the credit they needed to graduate. And that was definitely,~ um,~ held over their head as a way to, ~you know, ~control,~ uh,~ what and what . not, these interns could do. One being if they could take some time off, even one or two days off.

interns would a lot of the time tell us that they were scared to even consider taking a day or two off, or were scared to even mention, they needed some rest or they didn't know even that at the end of these six months, that for sure they would be given credit because that was kept ambiguous in order to create some sort of, ~you know, ~potential that they might not.

So they were often telling us that they wanted [00:33:00] to work extra hard or more hours in order to get this credit. And I think that's a sort of, insanely binding way to make sure someone is working for you. And that was very, very evident. throughout the internship.

The Rewarding Part of the Internship
---

Alif: In a way, way, I, I felt that the most rewarding part was, was actually the other interns, because we're actually a hugely diverse group of people, and everyone had lots of education in these long programs and they were all incredibly curious, hardworking. And I gotta learn so much from them, even though I think we did in the end, trauma bonded a lot over our experience. I think having each other made us get through each day because we had a lot of fun. as like at work as well as outside of work, I think I would've left a lot earlier if I didn't have this amazing group of people together. ~So, ~

Jake: ~ Uh,~ You've shared, a lot on this journey with us from your [00:34:00] initial excitement through to ~sort of ~the acceptance and sort of the curtain being pulled back on, the reality of this internship. You each put in a significant amount of, of effort and time and so on.

Erin Pellegrino: What are you hoping that people will be able to take or learn from your story?

Alif: I am, I'm actually very excited to be telling my story after so many years because I hope that it will serve as a reminder that it is, some things are not okay and it doesn't have to be this way. I remember actually had a conversation with one of my professors is that she mentioned that good architecture takes three things, time, money, and freedom, if not all three need at least two to achieve some quality of design. But I realized at our internship we had no money and we no freedom due to constantly at, there was surveillance and also no time. So I wonder if. Be,~ uh,~ produced up in this [00:35:00] environment and yeah, I, I hope our story will help others to question their jobs or internship environments or choices.

The Hope for Future Architects
---

Cecillia: Yeah, and I, and I think for me, I think the more we talk to each other in this next generation of architects and inform each other on what's going on, and realize that you're not alone. And also things shouldn't have to be this way, and it could be way better and more fun, and you could be way more happy.

That also . We're gonna, ~you know, ~become potentially the next generation of people who own businesses, who lead architecture firms. And I think it's important to consider that just because you went through something or you know that's how it was for you, you don't have to do that. And that can create change.

The Importance of Communication and Change
---

Cecillia: And I think it's really important to talk to each other in that way together and, become the next better generation of architects, [00:36:00] designers,

Narration - This is how we will break the cycle of architects having to endure and suffer - by shedding a light on these practices in the architecture world and sharing them with others. In the hope that the next generation of architects don't continue these same practiecse. So what finally led to these two young and hopeful architects giving up on their dream internship that turned into hellish working conditions oon site, building in dangerous condtiions rahter than using the skills they had been learning in school..
---

Cecillia: business owners. So

Jake: This is how we will break the cycle of architects having to endure and suffer by shedding a light on these practices and sharing them with others in the hope that the next generation of architects don't continue these same abusive, exploitative, and unsustainable practices. So, what finally led these two young and hopeful architects to give up on their dream internship?

One that had turned into hellish working conditions on site, building in dangerous situations, rather than using the skills they had been learning in school.

~uh, tell us a little bit about, um, how you both ended your internship experience.~

~ ~

Alif: ~I believe I left before I lifted ~I remember the turning point was I started getting the skin reaction and also I started developing a, I had a fever and I remember being so scared that I was like tired, feverish, had a skin rash, but still wanting to go on site because I was just [00:37:00] scared that, ~you know, ~they would think of me as non diligent worker or see me as lazy but I think it was just all too much for me and it really affected my mental state 'cause I was just exhausted after just weeks of grueling, working hard labor in the heat. And yeah, I think a turning point was my parents actually came to visit me and they were just hugely concerned about this. my health, my mental state. And I decided just to take, leave and actually travel with them for a bit in Spain instead. although I did leave on less than ideal terms because part of the catch of leaving early, and it's actually I've seen other people who left early also go through this, is they actually do not write you a recommendation letter unless you fully complete your internship. And this is also another reason maybe I did stay for as long as I did, is I wanted to have that letter to prove that, ~you know, ~I did it, it's gonna be a step on my resume for the future. But yeah, [00:38:00] at that point I realized that it wasn't worth, my mental health

Cecillia: I'm not gonna lie, I think I trauma erased the last . Two to three weeks of that internship, . So I don't remember the specific details, but I do remember that I took two days off to go visit my friends in another city in Spain, and that was completely out of the norm not allowed, besides being not allowed.

When I came back, I hadn't realized that it was going to be punished because when I came back ~ um,~ this architect actually came in and gathered people around started lecturing us about how this is one of the best opportunities we all could ever have, and that leaving for one to two days is not allowed because this is a condensed program for us to learn about their [00:39:00] practices.

And how we can become better architects, . ~Um, ~and a message was sent to the group about how leaving for two days is not allowed, let alone one day is not allowed. A very extensive paragraph. I remember that because I remember realizing and waking up to the moment that, oh, this is about me. I'm a scapegoat here for all the rest of the interns to not do this.

Once I realized I was the one being punished and that ~you know, ~the, you know, good terms had completely demolished, I realized there were no stakes for me to stay or leave. ~So, um, ~after a week of ~sort of ~being indecisive about when to leave, I realized I'm already not gonna get any credit for any of this. Quote, unquote amazing work that I have done here.

~Um, ~so I decided to leave as early as possible, and I left.

Jake: Did either of you put this studio on your resume? [00:40:00]

Cecillia: Oh, yes. Oh yes,

I did.

~Um, ~I was not about to

not

Jake: not.

Cecillia: use , not use their name, their renowned name for after all the amazing stuff I went through. There was no way, I was not using that

Alif: Oh yeah, I, ~you know, ~I, sometimes I think about all the, like the free work I did, and in a way I, we actually produced way more than any other internship. We like made whole pieces of furniture. We built parts of the structure, built parts of like other, um,~ um,~ mini models. And I felt like I did. Yeah. We deserve it.

To put it on our resume, that's the least they can offer us. Right. In~ Right. ~terms of helping us in our careers. ~Uh, ~because other than that, they really did not mentor us in any way. I don't think they really cared about us in any way. So in a way it, is. Yeah,

little bit

funny thinking about it now, but

it's this strange relationship that, that [00:41:00] we have with these toxic environments.

Jake: ~Well, ~ Well, I think you both deserve to have it on your resume in 32 point font for everything you went through. ~So, um,~

Erin Pellegrino: I mean, I think I want to thank both of you for those

answers. One, just really beautiful and, and positive, but

two, I think,~ two, I think,~ obviously what you both have gone through, and it sounds like everyone there went through, is just incredibly awful, and it's hard to think that out of something so horrific, something really good can come of it, but at least we can appreciate and acknowledge with everything that you went through, ~it's~ taught you that it doesn't have to be that way, which I do think is a, is a seed change, and, regardless of the creative field that you're in, recognizing that the basic ~needs~ around how that type of work gets done and proliferated and taught to others, um, can really only happen ~if~ everyone is entitled to [00:42:00] those sort of basic needs, right?

I think you, you articulated them as time, you know, compensation and, and freedom. ~can~ One can argue that, those are just basic metrics for,~ for, for~ respect for another human being if you're, if you're working, uh, alongside them. And I think that, I'm heartened simply by the fact that you were able to take Some of those things away because I think it's easy to come out of that and then turn around and say Now everyone has to do what I did and suffer as I did because as you said earlier Alif Architecture is something you have to suffer for you have to suffer for your art and I think you know, you've done a great job of at least breaking that cycle of abuse which Unfortunately found yourself wrought in

after having gone through this you are Both, second year becoming a third year, a third year becoming a fourth year, you have to go back to school and continue your studies. ~what was it like going back?~

I imagine people asked you about your summers, perhaps even professors. What was it like to go back into the community and [00:43:00] tell this story, if, if you even felt comfortable to tell it?

Cecillia: Once we went back, obviously like we said, there was a lot of fear in terms of speaking up to professors or speaking up publicly. But of course, as someone who loves her classmates, I wanted to make sure that all my friends and my classmates and anyone who could potentially end up going to the same firm would know about what happened.

So that. The least I could do was try to inform people about what happened through word of mouth. I ended up telling all of my friends, obviously, as best as I could, our experience. And I think I helped try to tell the story to people in the years below so that they could also kind of spread what had happened.

So a lot of people through word of mouth, ended up knowing what we went through throughout this internship.

The star Techs actually two years later after our internship ended up [00:44:00] coming to the school to give a lecture on their projects. there was an informal q and a afterwards where people gathered around to ask questions and, the architect, sat down and we had professors all around from all sorts of, backgrounds there.

And we had all the student body. And the student body obviously knew the experiences that we went through. So when the QA and A started, it began with asking questions about the projects. But I ended up asking about their exploitative practices and I. Right after me, a bunch of my friends and other classmates throughout different years also started asking this architect about the exploitive practices that they knew that we endured.

And what ended up happening was very interesting because rather than [00:45:00] this architect answering these questions, we had the professors skit around and navigate around these questions so that they wouldn't have to answer. We ended up being shushed, for lack of better word. And, felt like we were crossing a boundary by asking these sorts of more personal questions on whether these labor practices were okay.

A lot of I. The short answers we got from the architect was that because they suffered through the same kinds of experiences that we should be thankful for our experience. But really I would say what was a positive thing that came out of all of this is that everybody in the student body aligned and everybody, rather [00:46:00] than asking about these, so-called amazing projects were asking about how they were being made and everyone was united in the fact that we wanted a better way to work and we wanted , enlightenment on what was happening.

And also it was definitely a moment where we realized that professors didn't necessarily, always have our back, but some professors definitely did and came later on to tell us that. What we're saying is very important for the future of architecture. And I think that really, that was very momentous, I think in our school.

I hope, the only thing is like other schools have the same experience, but I think this definitely helped the student body in terms of choosing internships and understanding that this studio is ne not necessarily what they seem to be like.

Jake: I had like to, read a small excerpt from,~ uh,~ the notes Cecilia, [00:47:00] that you captured while you were there. ~Um, ~that I think is emblematic of, of this internal conflict that both of you experienced. That is partly I. This, ~you know, ~you know, wide-eyed, awe, and love for architecture and design. And at the same time,~ uh,~ ~you know, ~pushing pushing back on all of these warning signals that you are seeing every single day, it says, today is an exciting day. Despite yesterday's disappointment, the team is going to undergo the momentous cutting of the vertical members and seeing if the facade will actually defy gravity. Afterwards, the whole front facade will be only held up by vertical ties at the ends with everything else levitating in midair. It will be a moment of truth as no one really knows what is going to happen. We are all there twiddling our fingers, hoping the entire structure doesn't collapse. This once [00:48:00] again, demonstrates how relaxed Spain is and how you can get away with minimal engineering calculations and previous testing. This almost more primitive way of construction without heavy reliance upon digital software is to say the least. Very eye-opening. And I'd like to end there and just say thank you both so much for joining us on redlines, Elif, Cecilia, and sharing your story and your experience so that others can learn from it.

Jake Rudin: If you enjoyed this episode of Redlines, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Don't forget to check out the show notes for relevant links, resources, and other information related to today's story that we hope will help you in your own journey. If you want to hear more of these stories, consider supporting us as an Out of Architecture Patreon subscriber, where you'll have access to [00:49:00] exclusive Out of Architecture content, our private community, and more.

Erin Pellegrino: And if you or someone you know has a story that you'd like to hear on an episode of Redlines, please send us an email with a summary at redlines at outofarchitecture. com. Thanks for listening.