v4 S1 Ep 1
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[00:00:00]

Introduction and Background
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Mi Yao: So I asked my employer, can I have my receipt number so I can go into USCIS system to look up whether or not I got selected this time.

And what really surprised me was not only did not. Disclose this information. ~Um, ~they told me that because the visa Selection process has changed since 2020. there is no longer such a thing as a receipt number. ~Um, ~ but this contradict with the official statement that USC has put out on their own website.

~Um, ~so this number obviously exists. It's just my employer decided. Not to disclose it. I thought this was a little fishy So I looked it up online and even asked a lawyer If this is legal So for people who are waiting to go through the H1B process, , If we just don't get the visa, the company doesn't sponsor us, [00:01:00] we will expire and we'll have to leave the country on our own,~ um,~ for free.

The Redlines Series and Kat's Story
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Erin Pellegrino: This is Redlines by OutOfArchitecture. The experiences that isolate us in our working world are also the stories that can unite our community and allow us to heal. In this series, we dive deeper into the core issues that plague the design profession and evaluate how they result in everyday conflict, discomfort, and workplace turmoil.

Jake Rudin: We are your hosts, Jake Rudin and Aaron Pellegrino, the founders of OutofArchitecture, a career resource network for architects and designers looking to find greater fulfillment in their work and help navigating the many challenges within the profession. Through our work, we've spoken with thousands of individuals, all with unique pathways and experiences.

Erin Pellegrino: Too often in this work, we encounter stories of struggle, tension, [00:02:00] and suffering. Redlines seeks to bring a voice to these stories. Those privately endured in a school or workplace, but often clouded by shame, self doubt, and the questioning of one's professional choices. With each episode, we will ask a member of our community to share their story, we'll offer some guidance and advice, and discuss ways to move forward.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed or replaced with pseudonyms. Their stories, however, are all too real. In this episode, we speak with Kat, a recent architecture graduate who was studying abroad in the United States and found employment after their degree at a reputable firm.

Jake Rudin: That same firm took advantage of the uncertainty around immigration laws to keep them and their colleagues from having the full picture of their sponsorship status after more than two years of dedicated work for the firm.

Erin Pellegrino: Cat's story is, unfortunately, one that we commonly hear at Out of [00:03:00] Architecture, with an extra twist that reveals the shadier side of just how often employers take advantage of an employee's trust.

Understanding the Visa Process
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Jake Rudin: I'd love to start with a very simple question. What are you hoping to achieve by sharing your story with us and the community today?

Mi Yao: Really, I'm just trying to help people and I can think of two kind of people I can offer help to, which probably encompass the entire audience. ~Um, ~one is if you yourself is going through any visa issue or will be applying for a visa anytime soon. ~Um, ~things to look out for. And if something goes wrong, what are the alternatives you can take?

And for the other group will be people who likely don't have to go through this. But very likely, you know, someone, either your friend or your colleague who. Is going through this process, and hopefully you can [00:04:00] understand their situation better by listening to my story and perhaps even offer help to this person with these people in your life.

Interlude 1
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Jake Rudin: Aaron and I have met many people in this position in the United States over the years. As Americans, we have very little idea of the process for securing a work permit or visa. So we asked Kat to elaborate.

Erin Pellegrino: ~Well,~ ~ and I think I'll ask now. ~

Kat's Journey and Challenges
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Erin Pellegrino: ~Do you mind just starting wherever you feel comfortable and telling us, you know what you've been through and~

Mi Yao: so I born and raised in China and came to the US. To study in high school because I always knew I wanted to study in the States.

~Um, ~so I went to a five year architecture program at a pretty prestigious and well known school and graduated. Right before COVID started

~Okay. Um, I think I'll start with, uh, what visas here that we are talking about, which is the center of the problem.~

~Um, a little bit of a background.~ So for every international student, the most common pathway for them to settle in the U. S. is, To start with a student visa first, of [00:05:00] course,~ um,~ and then after graduating this visa normally offers,~ um,~ one year or three years of O. P. T. ~Um, ~which stand for optional practical training and note that this is not a pathway to green card.

~Um, ~you can only work on this status. and Thank you. There's also another catch is that you can only work in the same specialty as your major. So if you major in architecture, you can't just directly be a programmer straight out of school. and, if you're a STEM major, you have three years of OPT.

And if you're not STEM, you have one year. And during, or at least at the end of this OPT period, if you want to continue to work and live in the US, you have to switch to something else. ~Um, ~and the most common one is the H1B visa, which is commonly known as the work visa. And [00:06:00] this is a dual intent visa. So the intent will be, you can live here, work here, and also apply to be a permanent resident in future.

However, going through this visa process is a little bit tricky because it has a lottery system. So even if you have a offer at a U. S. employer or potentially have been working for them for a while on your OPT, you still have to go through this lottery. And the chance well, it's hard to say what it is.

But it's about one out of five. And, recently, because the USCIS has changed how the lottery is conducted, so the chance is even lower now.

The Opaque Visa Process and Employer's Role
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Mi Yao: so my story, has to do with the trouble that I went through when I was trying to switch to the work visa.

Jake Rudin: ~ I think Aaron and I often have conversations with people who are in this position. And for both of us, you know, neither of whom has had to go through, you know, the process of securing work permissions or visas, you know, within the United States. It's very opaque, I think. And you mentioned, Early in your response to to the very first question that you're looking to support both people who are actively going through these these challenges and the bureaucracy and and the relationship of of this sort of technical element of.~

~Being employed in the U. S. But you're also looking to educate those of us who don't necessarily understand the complexity. ~

Impact of Visa Process on Career Choices
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Jake Rudin: ~So with that in mind, we'd love to hear about how this impacted you. Okay. ~

Mi Yao: ~so. Something I guess I forget to talk about about ~ ~, um,~ you yourself cannot apply for the H 1B visa.

, your [00:07:00] employer has to sponsor you. , so the employer has direct Access to all the application information. And as an employee, you do not. ~um, ~so often time, which is pretty common during the three year stem.

O. P. T. ~Um, ~the companies. normally don't sponsor the first year because you are so new. ~Um, ~therefore it's a similar situation for me as well. So, ~um, ~in the first year of COVID, I did not go through the sponsorship process. ~Um, ~however, As we probably all know, companies still have to deal with the complication caused by COVID in the following years.

~Um, ~so it wasn't necessarily an easier situation for me. ~Um, ~so in 2021 and 2022 were the years,~ um,~ I, Entered the visa application process.~ And yes, you were right.~ The [00:08:00] process is very opaque. ~Um, ~I submit information that my employer asked me about and,~ um,~ they hire their own attorney to process the application and when the lottery draw happens, I don't have any means to look up the results by myself.

~Um, so. All not just myself, actually,~ everyone who needed sponsorship in these years will have to wait for the employer to tell them whether or not there were selected,~ um,~ which is not necessarily always the case. ~ Um, ~my employer chose not to share,~ um,~ something called a receipt number,~ um,~ and with the receipt number, you are able to with your name and other kind of crucial information.

Suspicions and Consequences
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Mi Yao: You can look up whether or not you're selected in the process, but my employer decided not to provide us with this information, which is actually the main point of the [00:09:00] conflict in my story. ~Um, um, sorry. Can I rephrase that? Because I feel like it's not everyone.~

~Okay. ~

Jake Rudin: ~You can also, um, well, I think one of the important and remember, we're gonna, we're gonna edit this. So don't you don't be stressed about about having to go back and redo anything. Um, one of the pieces from the very first time you mentioned this to us, um, was this. The sort of critical decision of, you know, leaving school, applying to architecture firms and the willingness to sponsor a visa being a critical decision point for why you would start at a firm.~

~Right? And that kind of trust and understanding then sort of building up to this question of, you know, I had been employed with this. You know, place that's a large firm that had, you know, seemingly, you know, already put together all of these this information and resources for both myself, but also the other people in the firm that were in the situation.~

~I think that might lead into the we. That you're talking about, um, so you're welcome to kind of start from that point. If you'd like, Aaron, did you have something to add? ~

Erin Pellegrino: ~Yeah. And it might make sense to also like do a little bit of over explaining for context and sense of like, so if I were to think back to the position I was in, you know, as a recent graduate working, you can say like coming from, you know, well known.~

~If you want well known and well respected architecture school, you know, this still puts a weight over your search because employers have to be willing to sponsor that you did a really amazing job giving us the background on visas, particularly for those who don't know it very well. I think also just providing that context of, you know, you set up a really great framework for showing how we're like, you can be exploited as a young professional.~

~I think if you could give us the perspective of what that was like, kind of. Great. As you're entering the workplace would be would be great. But obviously, in your in your own words, ~

Mi Yao: ~I, uh, just in my free time, I thought about, like, how I will break down different factors. And I feel like they constantly things that I want to mention later, just constantly come up earlier.~

~Um, so I guess. Uh, maybe I'll do like more chronologically and more of my own experience. I'll start with, um, my, uh, I graduated right before COVID and then when I was selecting company and then I'll talk about like there are only certain companies, uh, people who need sponsorship can select. That's ~

Jake Rudin: ~the way that you Yeah, and the way that you told us that in the first, um, call as well is very, like, engaging and really drew us in because it builds this, like, sense of, like, oh, shit, what's going to happen?~

~You know, like, things are going well, seemingly, everything is above board, so. Yeah, feel free. Take your time. We're just, we're, we're having a blast and we're really enjoying ourselves, so no stress. ~

Mi Yao: ~Also, I noticed I talk differently when we're just chatting versus, I mean, record mode. Um, so I'll try to keep on with this, um, this attitude.~

~So I guess the person editing it can just... Cut to wherever they feel like, ~

Jake Rudin: ~that sounds good. And I think I'll probably ask them also, like, if you go ahead and you, if you want to backtrack and give us that context, I might pull the visa detail information kind of forward so that we have a little bit more context on, on like you and how you got to this place and then sort of deliver the, as an aside, you know, visas are very complicated.~

~You know, and, you know, this is some more information about H1B and the OMB and all of this stuff. So. ~

Mi Yao: ~Yep. Cool. Okay. Um, I graduated right before COVID began. Um, so at the point, I was really trying to find an employer who can sponsor me, uh, as soon as possible. Um, okay. Sorry. Uh, let me just start again.~

~That's okay. Why not? Um, ~

Jake Rudin: ~yeah. We can also lead you in with some questions if you'd like. I can... Help you walk through the the points because I have it all written down too. So I'm happy to walk you through it if you want. We tried to prepare. Yeah, yeah. And this is our first time doing this one too, so up to you.~

Mi Yao: ~Okay, let's give it one more try and if that doesn't work, we can do like one question and sentence and answer you if that's really necessary. Yeah, that sounds good. ~

Interlude 2
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Jake Rudin: Students come to the U. S. to study architecture at great expense, away from their families, some in the hopes that this can lead to a future in the United States. The impact of going through this process and not being selected is far reaching. These students choose where they study to give them the best chance possible of being sponsored to live, work and build a life in the U. S. So not being able to fully see behind the curtain, not being able to understand the process of the selection, let alone having visibility to the results directly is extremely impactful.

Mi Yao: Not every architecture company sponsor foreign workers.

So there are only really a handful of company, who are really known for being good at sponsoring people know, the well known names, the big companies. So I went with one of them and at [00:10:00] first I was very happy because the starting salary was great. And,~ um,~ I feel like I will get a lot of connections and experience working at a, Worldwide well known company.

~Um,~ I didn't realize there was anything wrong with it at first because it's very common for your first year to be,~ um,~ not included in the lottery draw because No, You know, your first year there, you're so new. ~Um, ~so it's kind of reasonable, uh, consider a norm in the industry at least,~ um,~ to start to be sponsored, or start to be entered into the lottery from your second year on.

So that's what happened with me. ~Um, ~so the second year came, came around. It was my first lottery draw. And because The visa application is submitted by your employer and not the employee themselves. I did not have much information [00:11:00] about.

~Um, ~how that process actually went. So the only way I found out whether or not I was selected was to wait for HR to tell me the news and it was bad news. ~I did not get selected. Um, ~

At the time, I really trusted the company because I know in the past I have friends or acquaintances who told me that this company is really good at sponsoring their employees and they're really willing to put in the money and time for it.

I didn't think much of it. Until that year, because 2020 was a very complicated year for everyone. ~Um, ~not everybody who got selected in the process actually decide to go with,~ um,~ the H 1B visa. So there were leftover spots,~ um,~ that can be taken. So there were a second and a third lottery draw towards the end of that year.

That is when I start to think about, Oh, maybe I could look it up myself, because at USCIS,~ Um,~ did announce it [00:12:00] officially on their website that the second and third lottery draws, uh, were happening.

~Um, ~so this number obviously exists. It's just my employer decided. Not to disclose it. I thought this was a little fishy So I looked it up online and even asked a lawyer If this is legal and it turned out unfortunately that it is legal in the u. s for employers to hide this information from their employees ~um, ~because technically the applicant Is the employer, not the employee themselves.

So, , with that suspicion, I was thinking about whether or not I should change a company. I should change my job, a junk ship,~ um,~ before the. my third year on OPT, which is the last chance and the second chance I can get the lottery draw. But I decided not to because my company did not fire [00:13:00] anyone or did not lay off anyone until that point.

And I thought it was very precious because a lot of similar size companies, similar scaled company who were also willing to sponsor actually did lay off. A lot of their staff. ~Um, ~so at the time, I still have some hope for the company. Maybe they have their own reasons to not disclose the receipt number.

~Um, ~and I felt like at the time, I did not have a better employer to go to because I don't want to be laid off either. So comes the third year, same thing happens. ~Um, ~my employer, Again, did not want to provide us with,~ um,~ receipt number. I say us is because it's not just me who experienced this. ~Um, ~there are my peers who were at the same level as me, junior architects,~ um,~ who also went to the H. R. asking for the same [00:14:00] information and got the same answer. and I have emails, , communication with H. R. ~Um, ~asking about,~ um,~ information, regarding my application. And,~ um,~ what they said in the email does not adhere to what USCIS has put out in their statement.

Jake Rudin: This is a critical point. They had already been through a second draw, a third draw, gone to HR, and then they refused to give them the identifying number. This, as you can imagine, raised a lot of suspicion. At this point, they are already two years into a small three year window. They've decided not to find another job, and stay where they are so they go back to HR a second time.

Mi Yao: I guess fast forward a little bit,~ um,~ when I was leaving. This company, I try to download this chain of email that has all of the inquiries I made [00:15:00] about the Visa process and HR has deleted,~ um,~ one email in which they practically lied about the Reese Numbers existence. ~Um, um, ~luckily I did actually ended up getting a version of this paper trail that has all of the email, but I can confirm that it was deleted from the system. So the HR is aware that they.

were not being truthful, when they answered people when they asked for the receipt number . And HR suggested that since I did not get selected in the lottery, I can go ahead and apply for O 1 visa, which is a visa you can apply for yourself, but,~ um,~ the expense of it has to be shouldered by the employee.

~Um, ~or [00:16:00] I can, apply for a part time master program. And then on the master program, uh, as a student, again, you're allowed to,~ um,~ Basically work as an intern. and this is called C. P. T. curricular practical training. ~Um, ~however, this also come with the cost that the employee have to shoulder themselves because you do have to pay tuition for this program, and the employer is not going to pay for And both of these options require a lot of time commitment because to apply for all one visa, you have to do a lot of Extracurricular. ~Um, ~and I have heard people comparing that to, ~ um,~ basically getting another degree, like getting a master program on. At the same time working full time at an architecture company ~Um, ~so really the workload and the the cost ~Um ~to me personally [00:17:00] is not really worth it ~Um, ~because I was in new york city.

~Um, ~I wanted to live life. ~Um, ~I was doing all kind of Very interesting extracurricular that I want to do for me, not for immigration. ~Um, ~so I decided not to go with these two options that HR proposed.

Erin Pellegrino: what do you think was really going on behind the scenes?

Mi Yao: ~Um, ~obviously there is no concrete proof because without HR leaving any evidence in exactly what they're doing with these applications, there is no way for me to pinpoint that's really what happened. But there are enough evidence laying around that I can draw this conclusion.

And one is that COVID is difficult financially for all of the companies. And for my,~ um,~ previous employer specifically,~ um,~ they have a really big [00:18:00] chunk of their work in the China market. And as. Probably some of you know, China with this lockdown was relatively successful actually towards the beginning of,~ um,~ the COVID saga.

~Um, ~therefore, the market there was not really influenced. That is why my company did not lay off anyone for the first two years of COVID. ~Um, ~and really,~ um,~ it's the third year, like 2022. It's the year when the China market really went down and it really slowed down and we weren't getting paid for our project on time.

So that is when. 2022 was when my company laid off some of his employee. Now it's not a very big percentage, perhaps about 10 to 15%. ~Um, ~but we can tell that the company was having financial issues and sponsoring H1B visas are. relatively expensive. ~Um, ~I [00:19:00] did some research on this. So the cost of it on the lower end is about 1700 and the high end really not, not sure, but could be up to eight thousands or even more depend on what kind of lawyers.

Your company hires for this process. And let's say it's about 5, 000 per person on average. So this is a cost if the company want to sponsor, they have to pay. now. If a person was not selected in the lottery process, then, of course, the company is off the hook. But if the person is selected and decide to go ahead with the H1B application, that is when the company has to pay this cost.

So by telling us... We are not selected in the process. Even if we actually are, because we don't know what actually happened, right? It's possible the employee, the employer actually did put us in the lottery and some of us were selected and The [00:20:00] employer actively decided not to let us know so that they don't have to pay for this cost down the line.

~Um, ~ this is really what I think happened. ~Um, ~ the layoff is the company trying to shed its weight, try to shed its responsibility to pay,~ um,~ salary for this number of people. ~Um, It's further cost. Sorry. Um, it can further cut their cost if the employees can leave. ~It can further cut their cost if some of the employee can just leave on their own, and meaning the company doesn't have to pay severance.

So for people who are waiting to go through the H1B process, , If we just don't get the visa, the company doesn't sponsor us, we will expire and we'll have to leave the country on our own,~ um,~ for free. So this is potentially another consideration why,~ um, uh,~ HR decided to hide. ~Um, ~and you're identifying information about the application.

Jake Rudin: [00:21:00] do you think that this situation was unique to you within the company, or do you think it was one

Mi Yao: of many? I believe it's one of many,~ um,~ Because my peers and myself are pretty transparent about this with each other.

So we would talk to each other when we hear about the lottery results. ~Um, ~I will also talk to each other about what HR said to them. And it turned out to be. Very similar. So, ~um, ~ actually all of the people,~ um,~ my level, which are entry level,~ um,~ did not get selected on unless they are,~ um,~ some kind of specialty worker who are specialized in something,~ um,~ or,~ um,~ people, of course, , who are of higher level that actually [00:22:00] got scouted somewhere else.

~Um, ~they got the sponsorship. ~Um, ~so people who did not... Get selected, uh, quote unquote, are people of my level or people of my position.

~so let's go back to this. ~

Jake Rudin: ~Let's go back to this critical point. No, no worries. This is really this is super interesting. And I think the, um, you know, the narrative structure is absolutely there. When you say that, um, you. You know, because of, uh, this sort of very unique circumstance where there was a 2nd draw, a 3rd draw, you went to HR, you brought this question to them.~

~Can I have this identifying number? And they said, no, I'm sure that, you know, made you feel a little bit suspicious. So you're saying now. Hey, I went back to them. I've written, you know, this request, and this is really the first time that you've had this suspicion, right? Is is sort of in this moment. You're already how far along in this process?~

~You're already 2 years into your 3 year window, right? ~

Mi Yao: ~Yeah. Yes. 2 ~

Jake Rudin: ~years. Okay. So kind of come back to that. Um, to that point, you're saying at this point, you're. Okay. You know, you don't have an alternative place to go. You don't have, you know, another thing that you feel is, um, is reasonable. So you go back to H.~

~R. and you can pick up from there.~

Mi Yao: ~Um, sorry. Um, which point is this? Um, so, uh, sorry, ~

Jake Rudin: ~so you were just at the, at the point in your, um, story where you were saying, why don't we come back to the email that you wrote to H. R. Okay, ~

Erin Pellegrino: First of all, I want to say thank you for sharing and for educating us on so many of the different facets of what it's like going through, the various visa processes. I also, want to. Ask a question with the context that you've provided, which, as I understand it, is , you're coming out of school.

a very reputable one. You are a talented young professional. You're already a little bit throttled in the sense of the different places you feel like you can apply to that would support you in this endeavor. ~So there's a bit of a power dynamic there. Um, What do you think happened in all of this, , basically two year plus saga, what do you think was really going on behind the scenes at at HR, even though we don't know, and we can't, you know, necessarily prove what does your gut tell you? Because I think what you've set up for us in this story and really~ the way the visa dynamics occur is that it sets up a power dynamic that is really unfortunate that sits on top of the already existing power dynamics in a lot of, of architecture firms~ and really and really just in a lot of, you know, companies where young professionals are entering.~

~I guess I'm just curious, ~

[00:23:00] it seems like from your story and also from your discussions with your colleagues, that there is almost a potential kind of pattern of, exploitation. ~Um, ~With essentially this idea of dangling the carrot of support for your visa, over your head.

I can also imagine being in a scenario where, if they're willing to offer visa support, you won't maybe ask for a higher initial wage or maybe relocation .

Did this come up in discussions around things like compensation or, the job negotiation as a whole?

Mi Yao: I did ask about whether or not the company plans to sponsor me and the answer was yes. And that's one of the big reasons I went with this company. ~Um, ~and at the time I was actually really surprised by the salary that I was offered for. Fresh out of school entry level architect.[00:24:00] ~Um, ~so I actually don't have a counter offer.

That's higher than that. However, , we all know that when you're a salary staff don't make any extra income for overtime. So oftentimes depend on the project you're on. It's kind of depend on your luck. You could be placed on the decent project with good work life balance, but oftentimes it's not. Working one or two hour overtime every day is very common.

And of course, that's unpaid, sometimes even working on the weekends. What I observed, which I also felt myself as well, is the hesitancy to say no when,~ um,~ we were asked to do overtime or be placed on a project that has very unreasonable timeline. ~Um, ~because we're all worried about that that will be a reason our company will lay off,~ um,~ us or, decide not to sponsor us.

So... It is a little bit scary,~ um,~ to say [00:25:00] no to your employer, even though, in retrospect, you could be thinking, not just catastrophizing, like, there's no way your employer just gonna fire you because you say no to overtime on the weekend, but when I was actually in the situation myself, especially the first year I was working there.

I was really trying to be good and be noticed by the company. So I didn't say no to any of this kind of request and It is also pretty common. ~Um, ~and it's not just myself who noticed it. ~Um, ~in the company wide survey, actually, a lot of people anonymously raised this problem is that, a lot of Asian workers and, my company had a very high percentage of Asians, we were placed on it.

oftentimes competitions or projects in China that have really fast paced timeline. we are not exactly sure why that happens. [00:26:00] Maybe it is the language if,~ um,~ a worker is from China and the project is in China and it will be convenient if there's no language barrier, obviously. However, my personal experience is that language is not always very important in working in an Asian project.

Oftentimes, They just want people who are willing to do the work for that intensity. ~Um, ~and people who are waiting for the company to sponsor them are less likely to say no to this kind of arrangement.

Jake Rudin: ~so you've mentioned that a lot of Asians get placed on to higher work competitions or higher work projects with longer hours, and there's less of a reason for them to speak up. You've also mentioned that there are other power dynamics, including. , a very, recent subject matter, which is the unionization of firms. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you think this impacts workers who are working equally as hard, equally long hours, if not more are in a position to, you know,, speak up, but may not be so willing. ~

Mi Yao: ~Yes. Um, um, they are, of course, as I could imagine, and as I've heard, um. Conversation going around in all the architectural workplaces about unionizing. So, of course, my workplace is not exception. however, I found and also my me and my peers found that even though people from, um, another country might not have a negative association with unions, it's Because they grew up in a different environment.~

~Um, for example, um, my home country, I'm from China. Um, unions is a very common thing, like every workplace has its union. It's organized differently, and it does different things compared to the U. S. Union. They're not exactly the same. But the word union does not ring an alarm bell. In people's mind when you mention it.~

~So you imagine people from outside the U. S. will be more open to the idea of union discussion or potentially even going forward with unionizing. However, a lot of people express the idea of I am supportive of it, but I won't do anything to help the unionizing effort. And, of course, if people only have their silent, anonymous support and never actually step forward to talk to other people about unions, um, the process can never begin.~

~therefore, we have a lot of, potentially, a lot of supporters, um, Therefore, we potentially have a lot of supporters of unionization, but they're not in a position where they can do much for the effort. So it's very unfortunate because, um. They are actually the kind of people that will benefit actually more than American workers if, um, a union contract is signed, um, because we can't write transparency of visa process.~

~into the contract, um, and not placing people on certain project because of their race, ethnicity, or language. Um, it's because of the restriction on the visa, people are afraid to speak up and come forward, um, or even... Anonymously doing certain supportive work because they are worried about the company basically revenge or what's the word?~

~Um, um, they were worried about consequences. If the company do find out who they are, should they support the unions retaliation? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was looking for that word. Okay, that's it. Should I say that one more time? Yeah, it's up to you. The point came across one more time. Yeah. Um, so a lot of people who need company sponsorship or are in the process of getting green card are afraid to speak up because they worry the company will retaliate if they find out who were involved in unionizing effort.~

And in a way, to be fair,~ um,~ I can understand why company would do that just from a coldblooded like company point of view. Because if, for example, let's just talk about placing people on competitions.

If you place an American on a competition, they might leave. And you'll have to find this resource somewhere else. So... I could [00:27:00] imagine the company being worried about such workload driving people who can leave away from the company. And I also understand that the company can't sponsor everyone. And I, we imagine, I hope that every employer, if they can, want to keep all the employees that they deem.

~Um, ~sufficient that they deem,~ um,~ valuable. However, given the system in the U. S. Companies are facing a choice in which, if they want to do well. They will have to sometimes hurt the benefit of migrant workers. even though I am on the other side of it, I can see how the U. S. Immigration system and the visa application process is pushing company to make decisions like my former employers. In a way, I feel like it's more the U. S. Government. And it's system [00:28:00] that's ~ um,~ that's putting people like me through the visa dilemma,~ um,~ and not actually fully the company's responsibility or fully their choice.

Erin Pellegrino: So people who are willing to do the work because they can't say no, your ability to stay in the country, your ability to stay employed in a place where you've begun to build a life and essentially be. Taken from you.

Mi Yao: Yes. ~Um, ~ and being laid off has pretty serious consequences. Or actually just leaving the job on your own has the same consequence. ~Um, ~if you are on H one B, you have 60 days to either find and start your next job or leave the country. And for O P T,~ um,~ It depends. It varies from 60 to 90 days, but two or three months to find another job started.

It is pretty difficult, [00:29:00] especially at the time when companies are struggling with COVID complications.

Yeah. So if you do get laid off or you decide to leave a company, you have to move out of the place that you have been living for potentially years , It is a pretty hard choice,~ um,~ if anybody decides to leave on their own, and oftentimes we don't because you have to start your life over. I would like to add that there is another factor in especially H1B is that switching company also cost employer a similar amount of money. So while you're on H1B, if you would like to switch, your new employer will also have to be willing to stomach this cost. So there is that actually limits.

On,~ um,~ how many company you can realistically change to,~ um,~ during your time on H one B, which is also inconvenient. And [00:30:00] although O. P. T. does not have this kind of cost implication, there is a time implication because. All employers want,~ um,~ somebody they first hire to be on OPT for as long as they can so they can put off paying for the cost of H1B.

So if you have already, say, worked two years on OPT, when you interview for your next company, they, you will have to say, In one year, I will need sponsorship, and this will make you a lot less attractive in the hiring manager's eyes. ~Um, ~

Jake Rudin: So you went through this saga. You've applied. You've worked at the company for three years. And over the course of that time. You would have expected at least two applications to go through by the time you get this letter from H. R. telling you that, , this. Numeric receipt doesn't exist, which it absolutely does.

~Where are you in that timeline and what happens next? ~

Mi Yao: ~ it was my second year, , working at the company when I became suspicious and asked about the receipt. Um, and I continued to do so for the next year and got the same answer. And what was the second half of your question? ~

Jake Rudin: ~So as you're thinking, you're getting closer and closer to your three years of OPT running up, I'm, I'm curious to hear a little bit about that progression.~

~There's all of these risks, you, you know, you're only going to have a certain period if you were to get fired to have another job before you have to leave, let alone that this kind of three year timer is running out, um, you decided that you didn't want to invest. Tens of thousands of dollars for a lawyer to apply for the oh, one B visa.~

~You didn't want to invest tens of thousands of dollars in tuition, nor the time to go forward and, and pursue a, another degree after you already had one.~ So, as all of this is [00:31:00] occurring, your time is running out. I'm curious to hear about What that felt like, but then also what your ultimate decision was and what position that this forced you into.

Mi Yao: Honestly, even though I was sad not to get the H 1B visa,

I was a little bit happy that I get a chance to really rethink about whether or not I want to continue staying in the States, because a very common path For people to go through, especially in the architecture industry. ~Um, ~I say that it's because certain industry like finance are more willing to sponsor for H would be early on in the process and then start the green car path earlier on in the process, but for architecture company,~ um,~ they tried to milk the benefit of having someone being in this unstable , State for as long as they can, per my understanding.

So,[00:32:00] after three years of OPT, people can be put on H 1B visa for six years.

it's three years for each visa, and you can renew it twice. And then after that, The company will start to enter people into the green card queue and as for the green card, depending on where you're from, it can be either really quick, less than two years, or for people from really populated countries like China and India, this process can take can take more than 10 years.

And the later you enter this queue, the longer the wait is going to be. ~Um, ~so it's a really lengthy process. So in my case, if, even if I successfully get the sponsorship, it would take me about 20 years from graduating to getting my green card. And to me, this is just 20 years of just constantly being nervous and stressed about my job and worry about my performance.

And To [00:33:00] be honest, I'm worried about the entire economy because if there's another downturn any time in this period, I could lose my job and it doesn't even have anything to do with myself. So I just feel like the U. S. immigration system... In and of itself. It's not a process I want to go through and I actually would like to compare it to indentured servitude.

I understand that it's not the same as what the Irish people went through, but to me, it really felt like a modern version of it. And I do not want to sign up for that.

Interlude 4
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Jake Rudin: Listening now, you realize that because of the antiquated and bureaucratic American visa system, not only do people feel like they are in indentured servitude, which no one should feel like, let alone in the US in 2023, but the country is losing skilled workers, many of whom provide immense value into the architectural and design community.

Mi Yao: So I hate. [00:34:00] Decided that I'm going to seek residency elsewhere, and I looked into many countries actually, , who have better program than the U.

S. For example, Canada has expressed entry. The E. E. Path. ~Um, ~for a Canadian permanent residency,~ um,~ the UK came out with a visa called HPI, high potential individual. If you graduate from the top 50 university in the world outside of the UK within. ~Um, ~and apply for the visa within five years of graduation,~ um, ~you can live, work, or do whatever you want, actually, whatever pleases you for two to three years. Germany, Portugal are all countries that are very welcoming of immigrants, especially skilled immigrants like architects.

And all of these countries, the, one of the benefit of going with programs like this [00:35:00] is that Your job do not have to be in the same field as your major. So for people that are seeking to potentially try another kind of career path outside of architecture, this is very valuable. ~ ~

Advice and Reflections
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Mi Yao: For people who Are going through the same dilemma as I did, or who are about to go into it, I think I have a few suggestions. I can make~ thinking, you know, um, ~the first one is when you,~ um,~ accept an offer, try to get your employer to promise for written agreement. ~Um, ~that,~ um,~ outlines,~ um,~ what kind of transparency you'll be getting for your visa process. ~So, ask if they will be providing you with the receipt number. So, if they agree, there is a written agreement.~

~They can't easily get out of it. ~And if they don't agree, you already know from the start at the interview that this company is shady. ~So, you know to avoid it. Even all of the companies you applied decided Not to sign such agreement.~

~and~ then while you are in the OPT period, keep in touch with companies that you worked for before you [00:36:00] intern before and ~um, ~just keep looking for other opportunities just in case if you get laid off in this 60 or 90 day period, you can secure yourself another position soon enough.

~And this is options for Within the U. S. ~And, of course, at the same time, I do encourage you to look up alternatives outside of the States

~Um, and you noticed the things that I was describing happening to you do change jobs. ~Do not be like me, , who blindly placed my faith in my ex employer. ~If one company is not working, maybe they just don't need you. Maybe they just don't have the money to sponsor a visa. Try another one. Even the next employer is still not willing to write an agreement.~

~Thank you. It is still worth to see if their situation is better. And in this case, they will be willing to sponsor the visa. Um, ~and do share information with your peers. For me personally, that was very helpful because without talking to people who are in the same company in the same situation, I will have not find out or be aware of what happened to myself, which will be even more frustrating.

~Um, ~if you do still decide to go ahead with working in the U.

S. and potentially put up with a complicated experience with the H 1B or any [00:37:00] other visa application process, do know that you shouldn't be coming to the U. S. or staying in the U. S. Just for a green card. Only stay and work here after you graduate if you feel like there are other things you can get out of this experience.

~Um, ~ so that even if you at the end have to leave the country like I do,~ um,~ you still get something out of it. So it's not 100 percent lose lose situation for you. ~Um, and then ~

~. Um, if you really want to still stick with the U.~

~S., you can look up other type of visa that's not H 1B and see if you can qualify for any of them and work on it. ahead of time, um, because, , O 1 visa, for example, requires a lot of extra work, extracurricular competitions, being interviewed by magazines and social media. Um, so it is a lot of work to get other type of visa, but if you prepare early enough, uh, it is still possible to stay in the States on your own terms.~

~Um, and then for people, Okay, just one more thing. ~And the point really is for migrant worker like myself to not feel like a victim. ~Um, ~you can choose your path, you can decide where you go. When you open your mind like that, when you open your mind to opportunities beyond H 1B, there are so many...

Alternatives that you can go with. And I think that is a really hopeful idea [00:38:00] to have in your mind when you're in this stressful situation. And for people who are creating content. Not going through this process or for people who don't have to go through this process,~ um,~ such as American workers,~ um,~ or people who can easily,~ um,~ immigrate to the U.

S. ~Um, ~I hope this podcast was helpful in educating yourself on what your peers are potentially going through and even maybe offer support to your peers and Just gain political awareness about what is going on in your country, how,~ um,~ it's your government is really treating people who are legal immigrants, because I feel like a lot of the discourse politically is about illegal immigrants, but legal migrants.

Also, it's not all like smiles and [00:39:00] rainbows for us. It is also. Thank you. Very stressful. ~Um, ~so I'm just hoping to draw attention to this aspect of politics. ~And that's what I want to experiment myself as well.~

~So that's why, um, that's another reason why I decided to Just go with another country. And, of course, non English speaking countries also can have benefits like this. Germany, Portugal, for example, are all countries that are very welcoming of immigrants, especially skilled immigrants like architects.~

~And, also, I don't know if this is... If you're going to need this information, um, ~

Erin Pellegrino: it's great that your story does have a positive and a happy ending and that you've ended up where you feel comfortable and secure and happy and welcome, right? I think, forget as an architect or as, the co founder here at out of architecture, I think just as an American, I would like to apologize.

~Um, ~just for what seems to be a, a really difficult system in our profession, which is already a difficult profession to enter. And I'm just so sorry that you've gone through that.

Mi Yao: Thank you for feeling sorry. It's very nice to hear. but I did feel like I got what I needed out of the three year [00:40:00] experience, on OPT. I got licensed in the U. S. and I was taking acting classes in New York, uh, which is the center of like Broadway and off Broadway theater.

, I feel like I had enough. both professional and personal growth in this three years, and I felt ready to move to another place. So there's still a chance I go back, who knows, but at least to visit. And there's something funny I was thinking, like, OOA, I feel like what I'm talking about is out of America. ~Um, and I also want to add on something, because what you said to me reminded me of it. it is. Also pretty, ~

Jake Rudin: ~There are so many avenues of potential abuse of OPT and 81b workers. There's obviously the effect to at will. Employment that, even if you're not having a positive experience at a company, not only is it, very high risk to leave a job starting that 16 to 90 day timer, but it's also extremely difficult and less appetizing for future employers.~

~As you mentioned that, , it causes potentially extra cost. There are additional timelines. Of course, some companies are looking for people that are going to stay for 5 years, 10 years down the line. So having a 3 year unknown timer might make it very unappetizing to hire somebody. Um, you know, ~

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Jake Rudin: ~ ~Kat, thank you so much for taking the time to join us on this episode of Redlines. It's been very powerful listening to your story. And I think that it's a beautiful summary that you've just presented to allow us to share and an impact, not only people who may go through this [00:41:00] exact experience, but who also might see this out there in the architectural workplace and might have a better understanding of what their colleagues and peers are going through.

So thank you very much.

Outro
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Jake Rudin: If you enjoyed this episode of Redlines, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Don't forget to check out the show notes for relevant links, resources, and other information related to today's story that we hope will help you in your own journey. If you want to hear more of these stories, consider supporting us as an Out of Architecture Patreon subscriber, where you'll have access to exclusive Out of Architecture content, our private community, and more.

Erin Pellegrino: And if you or someone you know has a story that you'd like to hear on an episode of Redlines, please send us an email with a summary at redlines at outofarchitecture. com. Thanks for listening. [00:42:00]