Red Lines S1 Ep 5
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Chris: [00:00:00] their response to that was, You were here until what time? Like where the fuck's the work to show for it. I was just ~so. ~So angry in that moment. I was seething. I was seething,

making decisions based on, ~um, know, ~whether it's the bottom line in their best interests and not in yours. And it's just very unfortunate because. Industry couldn't exist without the workers. ~you know, ~we're being completely exploited for our passion and interest this profession. ~Um, ~it's just really unfair.

Guest: This is Redlines by OutOfArchitecture. T

The Mission of Redlines
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Guest: he experiences that isolate us in our working world are also the stories that can unite our community and allow us to heal. In this series, we dive deeper into the core issues that plague the design profession and evaluate how they [00:01:00] result in everyday conflict, discomfort, and workplace turmoil.

The Mission of Redlines and the Hosts' Background
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Jake Rudin: We are your hosts, Jake Rudin and Aaron Pellegrino, the founders of OutofArchitecture, a career resource network for architects and designers looking to find greater fulfillment in their work and help navigating the many challenges within the profession. Through our work, we've spoken with thousands of individuals, all with unique pathways and experiences.

Erin Pellegrino: Too often in this work, we encounter stories of struggle, tension, and suffering. Redlines seeks to bring a voice to these stories. Those privately endured in a school or workplace, but often clouded by shame, self doubt, and the questioning of one's professional choices. With each episode, we will ask a member of our community to share their story, we'll offer some guidance and advice, and discuss ways to move forward.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed or replaced with [00:02:00] pseudonyms. Their stories, however, are all too real.

Jake: On this episode of Redlines, we speak with Chris about a series of incredibly traumatic events over the course of his early to mid career ~across not one, but three separate offices.~ A small trigger warning that there are mentions of both sexual harassment and depression in this episode. If those make you uncomfortable, please feel free to skip this episode.

On to the show.

chris, welcome to Redlines. We start every episode by asking what it is that you are hoping to achieve, that sharing your story with us and the community today.

Chris: Yeah.

Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to sharing my story. ~Uh, ~believe it's, it's a story that is worth sharing because, ~you know, ~I was particularly struck listening to the audio book,~ um,~ that you've produced. much more common a lot of these themes really are in the industry. ~You know, ~You know, I think we, we tend to think that our experiences are hyper [00:03:00] unique. ~Um, ~and even though we might on some level understand that they're not, but we still think they are. And, ~ ~ so I'm, I'm hoping that by sharing my story, I. Other people can be one aware of things that go on beyond,~ um, you know, ~everyday conversations that that happen. And two, that we can be proactive in taking the steps to actually make a change in this industry that, ~um, ~really can't continue to go on as it has for so long.

Erin: Absolutely. And again, thank you for joining us here today. ~Um, ~why don't we start by you just walking us through your experience in the profession and the aspects you'd like to share today.

Guest's Early Interest in Architecture
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Chris: ~Well, ~I've wanted to be an architect my entire life. ~Um, ~started very young. Uh, ~ Uh, ~when I was seven years old, I had a school teacher that told me I was gonna be an architect someday, and since then, that was my path. I sought out classes in elementary, middle school, and high school that would support That trajectory. ~Um, ~I knew [00:04:00] that's what I wanted to do, and I started even looking at colleges many years early because my,~ uh,~ sister, ~you know, ~was older and looking at colleges, and I was just so eager, ~um, ~for that experience. And when I got to college, it was,~ um, you know, ~particularly first year, just so much fun and really, ~um, ~everything that I was hoping it would be. I was intellectually stimulated, I was creatively stimulated. ~Um, ~I was amongst peers that I resonated with and that understood me. ~Um, ~Um, for honestly the first time in my life,~ um,~ it was really a very positive experience for me. ~Um, ~and I was just, ~you know, ~eager student and,~ um, ~really looking forward to what my future career was going to look like.

Jake: I can't believe that you were, uh,~ uh,~ in elementary school picking coursework to, to figure out,~ uh, you know, ~how best to, to enter into the profession at such a young age. ~I mean, ~I think that speaks a lot to your ambitions, um,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~know, becoming a professional. And, and I'd be really [00:05:00] curious to hear a little bit more about what initially drew you to architecture, but even, you know,~ you know, ~in that experience of ~You know, ~your education, what did you, what did you think your first step into architecture was gonna be like before you ever really took that, that first full-time job?

Challenges and Misconceptions in the Architecture Profession
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Chris: ~So, ~yeah, ~I mean, ~I think that,~ um, ~what in I, fortunately had some very positive influences in my life and I. ~Um, ~was exposed pretty early to a lot of,~ um, ~ ~uh, ~art and architecture and things that think maybe not always exposed to so young. ~Um, ~and,~ uh, ~so I, ~you know, ~when I was a kid, I loved going into the city and,~ um,~ seeing old buildings and new buildings and being in public spaces, I just found it so thrilling.

~Um, ~having grown up in a suburban area, ~uh, ~it was, ~know, ~unlike what I got to experience in my hometown. And,~ um,~ seemed like something that was how we were supposed to, [00:06:00] to, to be. And Zs exists in communities,~ um,~ and, ~you know, ~these walkable neighborhoods full of beautiful architecture. It was just, ~ ~ I was fascinated by it. And so, uh, going into school,~ um,~ again, because I had. Positive influences in my life. ~Um, ~who had, ~you know, ~my aunt, she had a lot of friends,~ um,~ who were architects or engineers. And so I actually had been told going into it like, don't do it. ~Uh, you know, ~you're, you're signing up for a lot and here's what you should be looking out for. ~Um, ~and so even hearing their stories and experiences, I still felt like this was my calling. I had to do it. And, you know, lo and behold, and now I I'm an adult and I getting to experience some of the very things that I was warned I might experience,~ um,~ going into the profession. So, but that said, I, ~you know, ~in school,~ um, ~got to exercise a lot of my different interests. ~Um, and I also understood A lot of people, um, you when them you're an architect, they say, oh, I wanted to be an architect, but I was really bad at math I knew that really a thing in architecture. you know, it was not, not a requirement to be able~

~to like do like algebra or something. Um, I kind of understood from an early on that sort of was sort of the confluence of um, technical and really a lot of different skills. ~And [00:07:00] so that interested me I have, sort of a broad in interests and skills and, ~um,~ so it seemed to really suit me. ~Um, ~ said, I, I don't know that I fully knew what profession would really look like once I got outta school. ~Um, ~I, My transition wasn't as difficult initially as I thought it would be, at least in terms of,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~my first internship and things like that.

Erin: Yeah, ~I mean, ~I think when we're in school, ~you know, ~we have a very limited view of what the profession will be like, and I think it is, it is different for everybody and it is, it's changing fairly rapidly, but I think it's also, ~you know, ~there's a huge disconnect. I mean, you mentioned, we talk about it in~ I mean, ~the book as well, but I do think it's, it's a very big unknown for a lot of people. School. School. And when they transition into the profession. I'm just curious, what was that like? you went into school, ~ you know, ~this was your dream to become an architect. You loved school. It sounded like, ~you know, ~you really felt like you, you had found what you wanted to do and really enjoyed it.

So what what was your first experience [00:08:00] like outside of school?

First Internship Experience and Transition to Full-Time Work
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Chris: I started with my first internship, ~ ~ while I was still in school,~ um,~ summer internship. And it was actually a really, really positive experience. really enjoyed the people I worked with. I worked on some really interesting projects. ~Um, ~I felt my contributions were valued and appreciated and I was very excited to return, ~uh, ~working there full-time after I graduated. But what had happened was I had interned,~ um,~ for one a studio in, in one office in one city, then been asked to, ~uh, ~relocate to another city. ~Um, ~that seemed very exciting to me so I agreed to do that. And what I was not prepared for was that would be a very different culture in that office, ~um, ~with very different. Types of people and interpersonal dynamics, ~ ~I did not do as well with. ~kind of ~clashed [00:09:00] almost immediately my project manager and boss ~Um, ~and so I found that hard. It was not something I expected had such, again, positive experience the summer before. ~Um, ~but what, what started all of that was because I was relocating to a city with a higher cost of living, ~ ~ I was offered in, in lieu of an adjustment in the initially agreed on salary that they,~ uh,~ they would provide me with a housing stipend. And,~ um,~ so in my first week we were brought out to drinks, kind of celebrate~ kind of ~ And ~you know, ~after a few drinks, people are asking questions about your background. Oh, where are you living now? a person who I thought was very senior in the studio, which they were, but I guess I didn't, ~you know, ~young guy, bushy tailed didn't really fully understand, um, ~ um,~ the dynamics of, of the studio structure. Um, you know, was very curious about,~ well,~ what's your rent? ~um, ~how are you affording that? [00:10:00] And I ~kind of ~let slip,~ well, you know, ~I'm hoping this housing stipend comes through soon. ~Um, ~and that was that.

Workplace Misconduct and Its Impact
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Chris: And then a few days later I got pulled into a conference room and was berated for nearly an hour my boss. ~ ~about, we don't talk about personal finances, is completely inappropriate. ~Um, ~you're not getting this housing stipend anymore and neither is your friend who had started with me. ~Um, ~and I don't wanna hear about this ever again. And I was just completely flabbergasted. I mean, I,~ I mean, ~I was just shell shocked honestly. 'cause I didn't even realize I had done anything wrong. And, ~um, you know, ~they had mentioned like, oh, you know, keep this between us that we're giving you this. ~Um, you know, ~and so I ~kind of ~kind of knew that like~ like ~that was probably not a good thing. And I, as soon as I had said it, but again, it was like, ~of ~teased out of me with the line of questioning that had happened. And, um,~ um, ~what, what [00:11:00] ended up happening was I actually couldn't afford to live where I lived. ~You know, ~they told me number verbally, didn't have it in writing. And,~ um, ~I got an apartment based on what I thought I could afford based on the number they had told me. And I could not afford it. You know, I quickly realized I could not stay living there.

I ended up having to move and I moved into apartment where I had five roommates, and it was a whole different situation than I had thought. I, ~you know, ~from when I first arrived in the city, was very different experience.

Jake: That is such a difficult thing to understand as someone who you know is right outta school. And, ~you know, ~being brought into an environment, it, it's always a challenge to, to understand like when someone, ~you know, ~you know, supposedly above you is asking you for information, like when are you empowered to, to decline that? When are you empowered to say, ~you know, ~that's not appropriate. You can't ask me about my [00:12:00] rent. ~You know, ~especially in your first week. uh, ~you know, ~I just think that is, uh, really~ uh,~ inappropriate position to, to put someone at that,~ um,~ at that level in. I wanna ask you a very quick question, which is now from your, ~you know, ~current experience and in hindsight, knowing that it's illegal for a company to tell employees that they can't discuss salary, do you feel like you did anything wrong?~ ~

Chris: ~I mean, ~Absolutely not. I mean, at the end of the day, ~ you know, ~I shared something offhandedly, a happy hour. And to have that kind of come back and effect not only me but other people as well, ~um, ~I think is completely unacceptable. And it was absolutely not fair to be put in that position. ~Um. ~Especially not fair to have it impact other people. You know, my,~ You know, ~my friend that started working with me, we were very close. ~Um, you know, ~we literally started the same date together and we went to school together and we're still friends.[00:13:00] ~Um, ~but it did create a rift with us for quite a while. ~Um, ~there was a visible, shift in how I was treated in the office. ~Um, ~and wasn't until just a year or two ago that we actually about this together, and it was actually a really cathartic moment. It was a conversation I didn't realize I really needed to have. ~Um, ~she apologized. ~You know, ~we, we realized decade plus later that,~ uh, ~that wasn't our fault. And it wasn't fair for either of us to feel the way that we did. ~Um. ~So it was a very emotional thing for me because I, it was like this kind of shattered this thing that I had been holding this sort of guilty feeling that

Jake: Chris, can you tell us a little bit more about the effect that that decision to pull funding from you and your friend had on your relationship with them, and also ~kind of ~perception of trust in in the office?[00:14:00]

Chris: ~Well, ~I think that, ~you know, ~was obviously just tension with us,~ um,~ um, in the office, ~so, like, ~it wasn't we were no longer friends or anything like that, but I could tell how she treated me differently. ~ ~and in some ways it, Almost felt belittling like I was an idiot because I had done this thing, and how could I have done this thing?

Standing Up Against Unfair Treatment
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Chris: ~Like, ~I'm such an idiot for having divulged this information. ~Um, ~but I know that's not true and I said, we, we talk through it and, ~um, ~we're all good and we're we're, ~you know, ~as close as ever, but it was, ~you know, ~a interpersonal issue,~ um,~ for a while.

Erin: So it sounds like you were able to at least get some closure on that experience, particularly with, with your friend. ~Um, ~it seems as though this position did not last, or what was your next experience like?

Chris: Yeah,~ well,~ after some time it, became clear. The dynamic was pretty toxic for me in that environment. ~Um, ~and an opportunity came up [00:15:00] to move to another department and I jumped on that opportunity. ~Um, ~I would be able to on a different type and scale of projects, but also to with people who were clearly Interested in what I had to offer. And, ~ ~ it was very evident that they valued my perspective and opinion. ~Um, ~so I, I jumped at that opportunity and ended up being a really great move for me. ~Um, ~it brought my career in new directions. I, ~um, ~really enjoyed the work that I was doing for quite a while, but I was working very long hours and I was working very hard.

I was going above and beyond doing, ~you know, ~beyond just project work. I was doing a lot of different, ~um, ~things for the office, from programs know, you name it, I was doing it. ~Um, ~and happy to do it for a while because it fun and it was exciting and I was working with really interesting people. what happened a period of time was, [00:16:00] ~uh. ~I started to ~kind of ~to kind of move up that created some sort of dynamic with my, ~uh, ~immediate manager who had brought me onto his team. And, ~uh, ~there became a moment in time when there was a project where I contributed a lot of the heavy strategic thinking, ~ ~ and ~sort of ~the core underpinnings of the concept and things like that. ~Um, ~and that project got picked up,~ um,~ by a lot of press and we were invited to present it at the local a i a. ~Um, ~however, I was not informed about this, I think there was an element of feeling like a little bit threatened,~ um,~ and co-opting of that work to ~of ~further their own goals perhaps. ~Uh, ~but I found out about this event through, ~uh, ~newsletter. it was presented at the a i A and I was like, what the heck? how did I not even know this happened? ~Like, you know, ~you know, at a very minimum, I would've expected [00:17:00] to at least attend and maybe receive, ~you know, ~hopefully some recognition on some level, but to ~like ~like not even be told about it and then find out after the fact via like a newsletter was just totally crazy to me. ~ ~

Jake: Newsletters are awful to begin with. I can't imagine reading one and having that be the headline.

Chris: Yeah, so I was, ~you know, ~obviously really upset and, ~um, ~a mentor ended up having a conversation with this person on my behalf because they recognized that that wasn't Okay. Thing that had happened. And so eventually they talked with me and, ~you know, ~they apologized and they said it wasn't intentional, it was just, slipped the mind kind of thing. I have a really hard time believing that, considering they relied so heavily on me for production of presentations and content and, ~you know, ~all the things that would go into preparing for that. we also sat next to each other. So to ~like ~get there and give that presentation without me [00:18:00] knowing it would've been like, you really had to kind of like hide it from me, it shook my trust in them and feeling ~like, know, ~we had built couple years of really great work together and our relationship, our working dynamic. I. And it kind of just~ kind of ~that trust I had in them. And it became clear to me. It was like time to move on. Probably

Erin: Looking back that entire situation, you're later on in your career now, how do you think it could have been handled differently or in a way that at least felt more fair to you?

Chris: at a minimum I would've like, you at this great thing we got, we just got to present. you know, given the nature of Hierarchy and of that. I totally would've understood it was for more senior give the presentation in a sort of high profile setting. But again, at I would've expected to have been to come. ~You know, ~it's [00:19:00] a public event. gone, if I had known it was regardless of they me or not, least letting that,~ know, ~this is a thing that's happening. is exciting. ~You know,~ getting recognized for leadership and interesting, ~you ~work. ~Um, ~so yeah, ~I mean, ~I think it would've, it was a very simple fix, you know, not anything that you wouldn't expect somebody to do if you were being recognized for work that you had done.~ you know, ~

Erin: ~Well, ~and it's, it's a bit ironic that it was an a i a event because if I understand the a i a code of ethics correctly, it's actually really important to recognize the work of your fellow architects on a project. And this was someone that sat next to you, so it's not like your contribution was unbeknownst to them. I mean, it's egregiously unfortunate,~ um,~ and unfortunately probably rampant.

Jake: It sounds like, ~you know, ~this was one of maybe a few things that had transpired,~ uh,~ uh, over your time in this position. [00:20:00] You had been working super hard, you~ you know, ~succeeding in this role, but what were some of the other things going on that made you think it was time for a change? Yeah, there were quite a number of things,~ uh,~ that had happened over time. there was a situation that had happened, uh,~ uh,~ with a mentor. ~Um, ~Um, who was a more senior person in the office and I was really looking up to them in a lot of ways. ~Um, ~but as we got to work together more, we got to know each other more. you know, we, we started getting lunch and coffee and that eventually evolved into, ~um, ~drinks.

Dealing with Unwanted Advances and Power Dynamics at Work
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Chris: And, ~ um,~ in one particular instance,~ uh, ~they started coming on to me and I ~kind of ~went along with it and I don't really know why I did.

And I knew that it wasn't what I had wanted. but you know, there things ended up getting physical [00:21:00] ~you know, ~looking back on it, I can see now,~ um,~ things very differently than I did then. That it was probably, I. ~You know, ~an appropriate thing for a senior person, um, with somebody so junior to be~ um,~ pursuing in that way, especially when I was looking up to them as a mentor. ~Um, ~and so after the fact, it was pretty clear that I was not happy about what had happened and they, did pull me for a conversation and apologized and understood and so, you know, now looking back on it, it's ~like, ~it's not something that I am, ~you know, ~I don't have any ill feelings toward them or anything like that. just, I think it's way more common, ~um, ~in the industry than people talk about. Like ~kind of ~we inherently kind of know and we hear stories, but I think there's so much more than we realize and ~you know, ~to some extent. Interoffice relations, those kinds of things may be inevitable, but being aware of the power dynamics is so [00:22:00] important. Clearly in that situation, there was a capitalization on their part of the dynamic, and me being junior and, ~you know, ~we often hear about the objectification of women and the industry, but we often not hear so much about the objectification of men, ~um, ~does happen. And so that's why I bring that forward. But also, unfortunately, this is not the only I have of this happening, ~um, ~in my career. ~Uh, ~later on there was another more senior partner level person who I started to look towards as a mentor and they kind of~ kind of ~brought me into their fold and got me on their projects and I started to ~kind of ~[00:23:00] pick up since I had had this happen to me before, that there was ~sort of ~passes that were being made at me.

And I, ~you know, ~you know, being older and a little bit wiser was not gonna engage in it. And, and think that probably angered them to some extent because the dynamic got very strange and there was a lot of stress and pressure on the project we were working on. So that certainly fed into it. But ended up getting yelled at in front of all of my colleagues in a conference firm. one day after I had been working several late nights and we were being required to come into the office at 7:00 AM for check-in meetings because apparently that was the only time they had available in their schedule. And so I had decided to ~kind of ~kind of advocate for myself and others that, ~you know, ~if we're gonna be pulling these late nights to get this work done, it would be much better for us to be meeting at the end of day instead of the beginning of day because it's very hard to get in at 7:00 [00:24:00] AM when you're in the office until 2:00 AM And their response to that was, You were here until what time? Like where the fuck's the work to show for it. I was just ~so. ~So angry in that moment. I was seething. I was seething, like I was killing myself, ~you know, ~And you know, I did, had just done all this travel and like~ like ~all this stuff for this fucking project. And here I was getting yelled at in front of all my colleagues for apparently not producing enough work when I was exhausted. ~You know, ~ I was jet lagged. I was like, doing the best I could. But apparently that wasn't enough. And I thought it was a very reasonable ask to, ~you know, ~let's meet at the end of the day. So it took every fiber of my being to not talk back,~ uh,~ in that situation. But I didn't. And instead, I immediately marched outta the conference room, down the hall to big boss's office and I said, not stand for being treated this way. And you're removing me from this project. [00:25:00] I'm never working with this person again. And that's what had happened. But, ~you know, ~shortly thereafter, was when I realized, ~you know, ~it's probably time to, to move on and see if there are greener pastures.

Jake: I don't know that there is even a strong enough way to tell you how sorry we are, that, that, that transpired. And yet I want to be sure to express on behalf of all the listeners, and Erin and I, how proud we are that you stood up for yourself in that moment and that you had taken learnings from some of these other experiences and not just ~kind of ~sat back and, and accepted blame for, ~you know, ~this person's severe shortcomings. I think shortcomings is not even an appropriate,~ uh,~ way to address that, but this is the, the culmination of a very long series of,~ uh, ~mistakes. And I, I think[00:26:00] for you too. ~Uh, ~go to leadership and also,~ um,~ to, to stand up for not only yourself, but also your peers who are being put under the same pressure is,~ um,~ admirable and, and gives me hope for,~ uh,~ uh, the future of the profession. I.

Chris: ~Well, ~thank you for saying that. I do appreciate it, it's hard to sometimes believe in yourself. ~Um, ~so it's nice to hear it from others.

Erin: Yeah, and I wanna touch on something that you already referenced, but I think it's worth kind of bearing out because ~you know, ~obviously the . The stories that tend to make headlines, particularly even recently, right.~ right. ~We have,~ um,~ David Ajay Meyer a couple years ago,~ um,~ tend to focus on the more traditional power dynamics in, ~you know, ~in relationships which are typically, ~you know, ~male, female, male in the position of power, female in the,~ um, uh, ~subordinate position.

But I think you, you bring up a really important point, which is that those are not the only conditions in which that abuse can happen. Abusive power. I mean,~ I mean, um, ~obviously [00:27:00] it can happen in a lot of ways. It's not always very explicit.~ Um, ~Um, sometimes it, as you mentioned, builds up over time and it can happen whether you are, ~you know, ~me, male, female, non-male, non female.

~Um, ~and I think it's, ~you know, ~we're, we're really. Grateful that you've chosen to share that with us so that the people who listen to this can recognize that if this is happening to them or to a friend, it does not matter what their identity is, that it is, ~you know, ~in fact wrong. I also wanna touch a bit on maybe a hypothesis I think I have, that I believe Jake shares, which we talk about a little bit in the book, but the way that we work as architects.

You mentioned late nights being super passionate about what you do. The sort of way the veil ~kind of ~comes down and guards come down in the office creates at best, and I think this happens in school, a really great working dynamic. Friendships, and sometimes, of course, yes, relationships, consensual ones can develop, [00:28:00] but that intimacy of the way that we work together has a really hard time, I think.

When we move into a professional setting and we bring these habits from school into the, the profession and our mentors or the people in power pick up on that. and then start to again, kind of bring~ kind of ~us into the fold. And but the thinking is that, or the point I wanna make is that the way that we work at best can foster really wonderful relationships.

However, at worst, is ripe for opportunities for people, particularly in positions of, ~you know, ~subjugation or subordination to be abused and exploited. That abuse can happen of a sexual nature, but it can also happen. And it sounds like you were hit with both of these to just exploit your personal health.

Your mental health, your physical health, and work you [00:29:00] to, to the point of burnout. And you've obviously gone through, ~you know, ~a lot of this throughout your career and you're coming into us to tell us the story. But I, I guess I'm wondering what do you think, or what advice would you give to your younger self now, or someone who's in the position that, ~you know, ~you found yourself in, maybe earlier in their career? What

advice would you give someone starting out now?

Chris: ~Um, ~

~I mean, ~I think I would say don't be so quick to just give up your time for free. ~Um, ~you only get your, your 20 back twenties once you don't get that time back, that time in your life back. ~Um, ~and I certainly got to enjoy my twenties for sure. ~Um, ~I had a lot of fun, but when I think of the relationships that I didn't get to have because of the hours I was working or the things I've missed or whatever it might be,~ um, ~that I wasn't putting energy into that I could have, ~um. ~To not let those things go and, [00:30:00] and, and be more confident in, in advocating for yourself and, ~um, ~and your time especially.

Jake: Navigating the aftermath of these unwanted advances at work is super challenging. And you said there was a moment there where you just had had had enough and realized it was time to move on. How did you manage to keep moving forward in your career after that experience?

Chris: ~Well, you know, ~I, fortunately, ~ ~had a lot of people in my corner and, ~um, ~people that respected me. And so that's really what kept me going was, knowing that I was out good work and I was appreciated and respected by not only my superiors, but my colleagues, my friends. and I think that's what really kept me going, but it's been tested time and time again. ~Um, you know, ~there's many more to this story

Jake: Once again, we have a passionate young architect who has dreamed about this career and [00:31:00] lifestyle since a young age, but already they've had to endure mistreatment, abuse, overworking, and even unwanted sexual advances. Any of these in isolation could lead to mental health issues, never mind all of them one after the other, sometimes at the same time.

Any employee would expect the support of their employer, or at a bare minimum an understanding, especially during a worldwide pandemic.

Chris: ~you know, ~ 2020 was a hard time for a lot of people I know. ~Uh, ~but particularly for me, my mental health really just took a super nosed dive. I was working 16 hour days and I. Barely moving more than five feet in my tiny apartment, sitting at a table that did not have very good ergonomics ~you know, ~you know, not leaving my apartment for days at a time. [00:32:00] and there were many other things going on there for me personally. ~Um, ~but depression had like pretty quickly in and I was not a good place. so I finally had decided to see a therapist and they very quickly recommended immediately taking a leave of absence, recognizing that I was on the brink of a deep burnout, ~ ~and I do so utilizing Femla.

Jake: for listeners that aren't familiar with Femla, could you give a brief summary?

Chris: Femla is the acronym for Family Medical Leave Act, which is the federal, ~um, ~law and protections for workers to take extended periods of time off to, ~you know, ~if they're getting, having the surgery done or they're taking care of a loved one. ~ ~this is also how if,~ um,~ you take maternity leave often. so it's federal protection for workers to,~ um,~ take the time off that they need [00:33:00] essentially be guaranteed to come back to their job. ~Um, ~so long as that position is still available,~ um,~ when they return.

Jake: Taking time to care for yourself is so important and utilizing Femla to do so is a great way to ensure that your, your job is protected. And that's one of the main purposes of the Family Medical Leave Act is so that employees can take that time without fear of retribution or losing their jobs. Tell us a little bit about,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~what happened as you went through that, that period and, and the transition back into the office.~ ~

Chris: ~Um, ~it was honestly the best decision I ever made. ~Uh, ~was so badly needed. I realized I hadn't taken any really extended time off, essentially since college. ~ ~and I truly was burnt out and it was really the time I needed to Get myself back into healthy habits and routines and, ~know, ~sleeping properly and [00:34:00] eating properly and exercising, ~um, ~the basic things that we should be doing for ourselves,~ um, ~that I just hadn't been doing because all the pressures that I had been under and the amount of work I'd been doing and traveling and all of that. ~So, ~I highly, highly, highly recommend this to anyone who is feeling this way. ~Um, ~I did not know this was a thing that I could do, ~Um, ~Um, I'm so fortunate that my therapist recommended I do this, and so yeah, I would recommend anybody who's feeling this way that this is a, a really great option.

Jake: we'll put a link to more info in the show notes. For those who are who are interested,

Chris: Unfortunately though,~ uh, ~upon my return, or I should I say lack thereof. you know, I was supposed to be gone for a period of eight weeks when I was ready to get back to work, I'd reached out,~ like, you know, ~touching base and was told at that [00:35:00] time there wasn't work for me to come back to and to be patient. Could you work with us? ~You know, ~you can take your family leave for as long as you want. ~Um, ~and I said, okay, sure. Like happy to, ~you know, ~it out a couple weeks, ~um, ~and, you know,~ you know, ~with you guys on a transition back. And ~you know, ~know, some time goes by, I follow up, same story, time goes by, I follow up, same story. And so I start to realize, uh,~ uh, ~that might need to start looking for a new job because I had way boom past what I had budgeted for and ~you know, ~not making an income. And at that point I essentially started looking for a job and I get on LinkedIn and lo and behold, a post pops up from the managing director of the office. hiring, and not just one, but several positions of which I had all the skill sets and qualifications for. And I [00:36:00] just like so confused shocked because, you know, every time I had been reaching out, I was reminding them. Of all the different types of work that I had done in the past and how I could pretty much jump into projects at any phase, any scale and, ~you know, ~be able to help.~ help. and so I immediately called HR and I said, you know, what's the deal with this? Like, I, Like, know, here, I'm ready to go. Like I'm to jump in wherever. And essentially what I was told is, well, that's for a different department. And, we are okay. Now I'm, I'm gonna have to say that over again 'cause I'm, I'm, blanking on the language. Um, okay. I need to go back to my, because I'm having brain fart.~

Erin: ~That's okay. You're doing great. ~

Jake: ~It's okay. You're doing great. You've, ~

Chris: ~Okay. ~

Jake: ~answered all of our questions in order which is spectacular.~

Chris: ~Okay. Yeah. ~So I was reminding HR that I had all the experience and qualifications based on the job descriptions that they had posted. And essentially I was told that these were positions for other departments and that I was overqualified for them. so what I took that to mean was that they realized they could hire they were taking advantage of the sort of labor market,~ um,~ a lot of people had been laid off during the pandemic, that they could hire people that were cheaper. ~Um, ~and so I was just ~so, ~angry in that moment. 'cause I was like, here I am. had just been working so hard for them. I. For many months.[00:37:00] and I felt like I was being punished for taking this time off for myself, that I'm legally to do And they were somehow skirting around this like requirement of ~like, ~as long as the position is still available, when it's ~like, ~okay, ~well ~the, maybe a specific project or whatever that I was working on at the time that I left was no longer available, but there was clearly a staffing need and I, here I was, ~um, ~um, sitting on my hands not being able to work. ~Um, ~so I told them they're gonna have to lay me off because I can't to exist without having some sort of income. and at least if you lay me off, I can, collect unemployment. So that's what I ended up doing.

Erin: and continue to exist. It is shocking that an employer would treat such a hardworking person that had done so much for them and worked on so many projects to the point where they feel like they could no [00:38:00] longer exist, mind an employee in the so called gentleman's profession.

It is actually no surprise that a recent study by the CDC, that there are 32 suicides per 100, 000 suffered by architects and engineers. Putting them Unfortunately, in fifth place overall in the list of jobs that are linked to suicide. It is often the power dynamics that we hear about time and time again that affect employee welfare.

I wanted to know what Chris thought about this, considering he has suffered firsthand from the power dynamics that we see in architecture.

For Erin - "Can't continue to exist." It is shocking that an employer would treat such a hard working person that had done so much for them and worked on so many projects to the point where they feel that they can no longer exist. Never mind an employee in the so called Gentlemans profession. It is no surpise that a recent study by the CDC that there are 32 suicides per 100,000, suffered by architects and engineers, putting them in fifth place overall in the list of jobs that are linked to suicide. It is often the power dynamics that we hear about time and time again that affect eompluyee welfare. I wanted to know what Chris thought about this considering he has suffered first hand from the power dynamics we see in architecture.
---

Erin: ~Reflecting on just everything that happened with . Your leave and well, your attempted return. ~

Reflecting on Power Dynamics in the Workplace
---

Erin: ~How do you now think about the power dynamics in the workplace, particularly how they make decisions about employee welfare and job roles?~

Chris: It is so skewed in favor of the partnership of firm it is. ~Um, ~it, ~you know, ~I really, after so many experiences now, I just truly feel like they don't actually have [00:39:00] your interests at heart. ~Like, ~there may be really good people that you work with, but at the end of the day, making decisions based on, ~um, know, ~whether it's the bottom line or in their best, best interests and not in yours. And it's just very unfortunate because. Industry couldn't exist without the workers. ~you know, ~we're being completely exploited for our passion and interest this profession. ~Um, ~it's just really unfair.

Erin: So

you go back to the firm. You have them essentially let you go so that you can collect unemployment. It's the pandemic or post pandemic. What happens next?

Transitioning to a New Job
---

Chris: So I fortunately was able to find a new job, ~ ~ and I was very excited because I felt like perhaps this was going to be a place that could be for me long term. Things started out. amazingly, I was really excited about the project I was put on.[00:40:00] I really liked everyone I was working with. Things were going very and I felt like my transition was very easy. ~Um, ~ that lasted really only as long as the project.

Experiencing Mismanagement and Feeling Undervalued
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Chris: And, ~um, ~I had been hearing a lot of rumblings from colleagues about and their frustrations with how projects were being run and feeling undervalued and underappreciated. And up until that point, I, I had a hard time understanding their perspective 'cause it just didn't resonate with my experience. Not that I didn't believe them, but it just,~ uh,~ it wasn't something I had experienced yet. that all changed very quickly.

Jake: ~ sTarting off at your new job, things seem pretty great. At first, you're feeling like, yes, this is it. I'm finally where I'm supposed to be. How did that feeling evolve as time went on? ~

Chris: ~Well, now looking back on it, there was deep denial for quite some time. You know, I had been hearing these rumblings from colleagues about things not kind of working and, and not making sense. And, um, I think that I wanted it to work so badly that I was just trying so hard to make it work and be in it and only see the positives because I had had so many experiences where there were, I. So many negative things that I had experienced. And so I think mentally I was really just trying to focus on the positive and being grateful for the things that were working for me at least. Um, I think, go ahead,~

Erin: So there you were faced with this big project and some pretty steep expectations. What was running to your head when that landed on your desk, and how did you deal with the mixed messages and the pressure from the higher ups?

Facing Challenges and Expectations in a New Project
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Chris: everything really began to change, [00:41:00] um, at the conclusion of my project.~ um,~ you know, things had gone so well, ~ ~ but I didn't know where things were going to go and, ~uh, ~I didn't know what my future staffing was going to be. And so I was pulled for various conversations with,~ uh, ~ ~you know, ~senior and partner level people, essentially they were challenging me to kind~ kind of ~up to the plate and Manage,~ um,~ project and scale of work that I hadn't yet done. And, ~uh, ~I told them, ~you know, ~I'm, I'm up for the challenge. ~Uh, ~but this is beyond what I've done thus far in my career. And,~ um, you know, ~you know, happily take this on if I have the support and, ~you know, ~people are willing to coach me through this. ~Um, ~but along with that conversation, I was being told things such as,~ well, you know, ~if,~ uh,~ you have to come in on a Sunday because that's what it requires, that's what you do. And I just like, fundamentally~ like, ~just did not agree with that, and I really, it did not sit well with me. And I made that very [00:42:00] clear in that conversation that that was not something I was this point in my career willing to be doing anymore because valued my time and myself too much for that. ~Um, ~and I don't think was necessarily appreciated, but I could only speak my truth. ~Um, ~but at the end of the day, ~you know, ~I, I was ~kind of ~pushed into this situation to lead this new project and I said, okay, let's do it. And what ended up happening was was four people that were very, very senior to me, and each one of those people had a different perspective on the way things were to go and the direction to take things, the next steps, et cetera. And it became this game of ~like ~waiting for who was going to say what. And like~ like ~there being zero clarity on hierarchy and the expectation being that I was going to manage all of these senior people that didn't wanna take. [00:43:00] My direction.

Dealing with Dismissal and Disrespect
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Chris: Like I felt like my voice was completely not valid. Like I would, I would make recommendations and just be completely dismissed. ~Um, so, ~and so, nope, we're gonna do this instead. And then lo and behold, it would come back around and the client would be like, what the heck? Why didn't you do this? Which was the thing I had recommended, or, ~know, ~know, come back around and the partner would be like, no, we're going to do this. Which had been like the thing that I had said, ~you know, ~weeks before. ~Um, ~so it, it became a really untenable situation. And what happened was, ~um, ~a junior on the project was being given very conflicting information and ended up resulting in a meeting that was very tense and she ended up crying and I felt really awful it. ~Um, ~so I took it. On my responsibility to go approach,~ um,~ director and said, Hey,~ like,~ I'm not okay with that.

This happened. Like we really need to get on the same page. And essentially was asking [00:44:00] for a project reset,~ um, ~where we could more clearly define our roles and responsibilities ~you know, ~you know, make a path and a plan to move forward in a productive way and not be ~kind of ~chasing our tail. And it didn't help that there was high pressure situation from the client and all of that, but that's any project.

Experiencing Unfair Treatment and Job Loss
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Chris: so instead what ended up happening going into that conversation that I thought we were gonna kind of level set was I was told I was being removed from the project and I was just ~kind of ~blindsided because, ~you know, ~they had been, put all this pressure. Me to do this, then like, oh, this isn't working out.

Like you're the problem. And in that conversation was told by the partner that they didn't really believe I was a senior, and I just was completely, ~I mean, ~I mean, I, I got totally emotional and cried in that meeting, but I, it just didn't add up to me because it didn't resonate [00:45:00] with, thus far I had only received very positive feedback. And, ~you know, ~prior, with various people that I've worked with, I've only been told, ~um, ~for the most part very positive things in terms of having really strong communication skills and, ~you know, ~you know, having a lot to offer. And ~so, ~especially given all of the many things that I, again, was doing for the office, that really came as a shock to me. And what happened for me was it just completely eroded my confidence and made me feel like I wasn't actually valued or understood that my thoughts weren't,~ um, you know, ~valued and that I didn't have a real place. ~Um, ~I felt like I was trying to be pushed into a corner that really didn't suit me. ~ ~but I, ~know, ~persevered and was poop moved to a new project and I try to start that project with open mind and I. Went in, try and have that [00:46:00] conversation from the get go about ~like, ~okay, let's establish the roles and responsibilities now that we know what everyone is doing and that we can be on the same page and not be questioning, ~you know, ~who's making what decision and et cetera. ~Um,~

Jake: Looking back, Chris, on some of the red flags, do you feel like this conversation, ~you know, ~hearing you're not really a senior, was I. Precipitated by other issues within the project. Did you feel like you had, ~you know, ~mistepped at, at some point that would've caused this? It seems like it's coming from nowhere.

Chris: I

mean, particularly with this project, it felt like

I was just set up for failure and there was, was no. Real plan in place. And in the absence of plan, ~um, ~I was doing what I could, but I also felt like I was hamstrung because I couldn't actually make the decisions I wanted to make.[00:47:00] ~sort of ~So it was sort of a lose lose where I, ~you know, ~was being challenged to rise to the plate and then I couldn't, and I was ~kind of ~like being told no. ~Um, ~it was frustrating, ~but you know, ~back then I was just so in my people pleaser mindset and ~like, ~I have to have to prove myself, I have to prove myself. not even thinking about the fact like all these other people had having similar experiences in some way. ~ ~but that. I ended up culminating in a in a conversation that I had with colleagues, ~um, ~people were also just as floored as I was,~ um,~ at the remarks that were made,

Jake: And to clarify you went into this firm as a senior level

employee, and so them asking you to take extra responsibility on top of that would have indicated really clearly that they felt like your performance was strong, that you were capable of handling this, ~you know, ~giving you the good [00:48:00] old four bosses in one project scheme, ~you know, ~is something that's obviously going to be a challenge and it seems like you handled it to the best of your ability. So, passing the buck here doesn't really,~ uh,~ doesn't really add up,~ um,~ except for maybe what, what you're going to tell us happens next.

Chris: ~Well also, I, I just wanna add, you know, I, having clear definitions about titles is so important because is a senior supposed to be directing a project? Is that not what a director does? What does a director do if not direct the project? Like. There's something completely backwards about some of these dynamics that unfold and, um, how, how can the expectation be I'm supposed to do something that I've never done? But, um, you know, people that are supposed to be providing the leadership aren't doing what they're supposed to do either. And again, it's just unfair and a complete lack of willingness to essentially train and, and foster people and help grow their skillsets and their abilities. Like, how can you continue to be successful if you're not willing to invest in your people?~

Jake: ~To call someone a senior and then not trust their input into a project is a recipe for, for failure to begin with. So I think that is clearly on them, and, um, I can only imagine that would've shaken your, your confidence. Um, but you moved on to the next project and seemingly were, you know, set up for, uh, a different type of project.~

~You had the ability to, you know, ask questions about the role charter in advance and, and try to, you know, kind of place where you were supposed to be in this project. Tell us how that played out.~

Chris: ~So the, excuse me, I thought I was gonna Okay. Um,~

Jake: ~Don't, don't throw up on the, on the podcast ~

Chris: ~I thought gonna burp, then, um, okay. Uh. ~When I began working on this project, things seemed to be going much better. ~You know, ~we had had this conversation about roles at the beginning, but I, I got the sense that, ~uh, ~this project manager was real micromanager type. ~Um, ~having had conversations with other people and was ~kind of well,~ kind of warned, this is how they are. It takes them a while to gain your trust. ~Um, ~just be patient and you're doing a great job. ~Um, ~but as time went on, there was ~kind of ~still kind of some tensions happening about decisions and the hierarchy thing was still ~kind of ~at play. ~Uh, ~[00:49:00] eventually there was such chaos kind of happening. Um, that. I was, again, pulled by the very partner who had told me they didn't think I was a senior.~ kind of Um, Um, ~and was asked essentially lead a whole portion of scope for this project because, ~uh, ~several months had gone by. And then there was an absence of leadership and staff dedicated for this portion of scope and was told like, we're looking to you to, to deliver this for us because you're the only person that's in this enough that can get it done and, ~you know, ~we believe in you and dah, dah, dah, this stuff. ~Um, ~and I was like, okay. And again, having come from that lost conversation about not being a senior feeling like I needed to prove myself, I, ~you know, ~poured myself into the work and I working really long hours and I, I pulled several All nighters, late nights, [00:50:00] pulling together the presentation for this big meeting and including the night before. ~Um, ~and I gave the presentation went really well. We received really positive feedback. I messaged the team like, I'm gonna go sleep now. People laughed and ~kind of ~acknowledged ~like, ~yeah, you go do that. And not even an hour later I got an email,~ uh,~ essentially this really ominous message that I immediately understood that I was probably getting laid off tomorrow. And what happened. And I just, could not believe it after having worked as hard as I just did. being told, oh, we're, you're gonna lead this. Portion of the project and you're the only one that can do it. And in my head I'm thinking, ~you know, ~there was, there was some rumblings in the office about a slowdown in, in work and things like that, but I never thought that I would be affected by that because again, I was working so hard and doing so many things in the office and [00:51:00] just had this conversation where I was essentially being told I'm gonna be running this like here on out,~ um, you know, ~multi-year project.

Erin: that

Is awful. ~Um, ~the moment you found out about the layoff right after you've given your all to this project and the presentation goes super well, must have been pretty intense. Can you walk us through a little bit of unpacking what you were feeling?

How did you come to terms with the idea that all of your hard work was clearly being taken for granted?

Chris: I felt so disrespected and used in this moment. I really, I just couldn't believe that I had been so misled and it really just and I get emotional 'cause it, I just felt really, really disrespected.

Jake: It's understandable when a company is going through financial hardships that difficult decisions need to be made. A lot of the time, [00:52:00] companies will At least do the employee the courtesy of pulling them aside and individually explaining the circumstances. There's a softness with which these scenarios need to be handled.

But in this situation, it was a horrendous thing to do to somebody. I share in this feeling with Chris, because we actually know something that. The listeners don't yet. Chris hasn't told us the flip side of this. The incredibly angering and frustrating side of how this was communicated to him.

Jake - it's understandable when a company is going through financial hardships that difficult decisions need to be made. A lot of the time a companies at least will do the employee the courtesy of pulling them aside and individually explaining the circumstances. There's a softness with which these scenarios need to be handled. But in this situation it was a horrendous thing to do to somebody. I share in this feeling with Chris because we actually know something that you the listeners doesn't. Chris hasn't yet told us the flip side of this, the incredibly angering, and frustrating side of how this was communicated to him.
---

Jake: ~It's a horrendous thing to, to do to somebody. But, uh, you know, I want to, you know, share in this feeling with you because we actually know something that the listeners don't, which is, you know, a a lot of the times companies at least will, um, um, employees the courtesy of, you know, pulling them aside individually sharing, you know, explaining the circumstances. there's a softness with which, um, you know, these scenarios need to be handled. And, and it's understandable in some ways when a company is going through financial hardships that difficult decisions need to be made. But, um, you haven't yet told us the flip side of this, the incredibly angering, and frustrating side of how this was communicated to you.~

Chris: ~Yeah, so. ~

Reflecting on Unprofessionalism and Disrespect
---

Chris: ~Well,~ what happened was they sent this mass email to everyone who was being laid off. And, ~um, ~we came in in person slash on camera. ~Um, ~but they had this conversation together. ~Um, ~and ~um, um, ~

Erin: ~worries. Take~

Chris: I completely understand that, ~you know, ~with conditions, market forces, at the end of the day, businesses [00:53:00] have to make decisions and. But there's a right way to do things and there's a very wrong way to do things.

And I felt like I was so wronged here. I felt completely exploited, my labor was utilized. And all the while they actually knew that I was being laid off. I, in that meeting asked like, how long have you known and when was the final decision made? And they were told, they'd known for months and they had made the final decision the week prior. So in all that time it was known that I was probably being laid off I was still pushed to deliver all this work. When in reality they could have actually laid me off given me a proper severance instead of a month of pay. And the worst part was my insurance ended. Two days later, didn't even have the opportunity to renew my prescriptions or reschedule, ~you know, ~important [00:54:00] doctor's appointments,~ uh,~ that I had coming up to at least be the timeframe where I would still be covered. And so I just found that to be really disrespectful and absurd. If they had known for months, they could have made proper management decisions to give us a sendoff that was with dignity and respect as opposed to pushing us to deliver work and letting us go with nothing. ~Um, ~just completely lost and, and it's unfortunate. ~Um, ~but it's really left me feeling like, how, how can I continue to put myself through this? ~Like, ~I can't continue to subjugate myself to such conditions. It's just not I'm willing to do anymore. ~ ~

Erin - I want to make it clear that I am not saying that Chris is suicidal. But when you hear an architect talk about losing dignity and respect, two fundamentals of anyones self worth, of being subjugated, of being lost, of feeling like they can't cease to exist, you can start to understand why architects aree the 5th highest profession for suicide in the US and our motivation to share these stories with you with the goal of chaning these practices in our profession, the gentelmans profession
---

~I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that Chris is suicidal. But when you hear an architect, talk about losing dignity and respect. To fundamentals of anyone's cell phone. I'm being subjugated or being lost. Of feeling like they can't cease to exist. You can start to understand. By architect of the fifth highest profession for suicide in the us. ~

~And you can understand our motivation to share these stories with you. With the goal of changing these practices and our profession The gentleman's profession. ~

Jake: I think this is a, a really good opportunity. we had, an avid listener of red lines and a friend of out of architecture tell us, you know, that~ Um, uh, you know, ~They were shocked at how [00:55:00] we could keep our composure during these stories because they're so infuriating. And I know that, ~you know, ~as a listener, you can't see the anger and frustration and absurdity on Erin and i's face as we, as we have to sit here and, feel for, for you as you tell these stories, but I would just like to say fuck them. That is an absurdly unprofessional way to handle a scenario like this on top of this being the same firm that continuously, ~you know, ~coaxed you and, and elevated you to try and do more than they were paying you for. And then simultaneously, ~um, you know, ~not only let you fail, but you know, brought you into that scenario a second time, knowing that, that they weren't gonna be keeping you around,~ uh,~ for, for much longer. So yeah, for listeners, uh, we do~ uh,~ feel that frustration and, and we You know, we ask,~ You know, um,~ and, and are so,~ so, ~so proud of our [00:56:00] storytellers for sharing these stories, and we ask for them to do so because,~ um, you know, ~even more frustratingly maybe like this isn't,~ like you know, uh, ~story that's really a story about just one person.

And it is very unique to you, but it's also,~ um,~ a story that happens, ~you know, ~across the industry. And so,~ so, um, you know, ~you know, we're very grateful that you're taking the time to, to share this, but equally as frustrated and, um, you know, seething with anger, as you put it earlier.

Erin: ~So after sharing all of this betrayal to the profession that have wanted to be a part of since you were a little kid. And a profession that you love dearly and a craft that you care so deeply about. How are you feeling now about your future in architecture, not in architecture?~

~Has this sort of deep dive or has this, um, cross section of all these experiences, has it changed your perspective at all ~

Chris: ~absolutely. ~

Contemplating Future in Architecture
---

Chris: ~I have been thinking for a long time about I. How I could pivot and what that might look like. Um, and I think that at the end of the day, I'm having a hard time seeing myself doing it all over again at another firm where I just know that many of the same issues are just gonna continue to persist. Um, okay. I'm gonna pause for a second because I don't wanna be like too in the present moment to be like, this just I don't know.~

Jake: ~Sure, no problem.~

Chris: ~Um, so I'm trying figure out like how to~

~formulate to talk about my next steps without being like too specific.~

Jake: ~You don't have to if you don't want to. Um, and we can, um, take this section. There's another question in here that I think might address this a little bit better, Aaron, which is number~

~35 if you wanted to ask it, which is more along the lines of like, you know, do you still have~

~love for the profession? You know, and like, is there it, as opposed to~

~like, what are you gonna do next? And you don't, you don't have to address that.~

Chris: ~Yeah,~

Erin: ~So, I mean, it~ sounds like you started with such a love and a passion for, for architecture as many of us do in the OOA community. I think this resonates quite a bit with our audience. How do you balance that with the tough experiences that you've had? Is there a way that you've found that you've been able to hold on to that initial love and passion?

Chris: I think I'll always have a love and appreciation for architecture and design. It's very core to my DNA, but when I talk with friends that are not in the industry, I. They're constantly just [00:57:00] shocked at the things that we subject ourselves to. ~You know, ~and I tell them even basic things about like expensing late meals and like how stingy they can be.

And they're like, ~Like, you know, like, ~oh, my company would've like had like a ~ like like you know, ~foreign buffet or whatever if we were working in those late nights or like, whatever it might be. Just like even small little things that like should not matter. like if you're working that late, feed your people, ~you know, um, ~not that hard and it's not that much money. ~Um, ~but even the bigger things of ~like, you know, ~the hours we work and, the comparatively, ~you know, ~not as great salaries that we make compared to professions, ~um, ~it really does beg the question of ~like, ~what are we doing as an industry? And ~know, ~when you look at the numbers, ~ ~that i A and NCARB publish about the retention rate in the industry, it's abysmal. It's really terrible. And how can we hear these stories and, and see this data [00:58:00] and not want to do something about this? ~Um, ~for me, I am in the, the process of pivoting my career in new ways. ~Um, ~I'm looking at how I can continue to make use of my analytical thinking and strategic~ uh,~ but in different contexts. ~ And several interesting opportunities that I'm tracking. Um. I guess I'm getting a little bit in the moment again.~

Jake: ~ um, Um, ~at the end of all this, what are you hoping people will take away from your stories today?

And and what advice would you give to other people out there who are listening and seeing themselves in your narrative?

Final Thoughts and Advice for Others
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Chris: first I'd have to say, it doesn't have to be this way. If you're a young person. In college and not yet sure what your next steps are. ~Um, ~and even if you pursue the, the traditional path going to a firm, be very clear with your boundaries.[00:59:00] Don't sell yourself short and give into the ethos of putting in the long hours and all of that, ~uh, ~because at the end of the day, it might not even get you that far. sometimes it will, sometimes, ~you know, ~taking risks will pay off, but give yourself the dignity or respect that you deserve. ~Um, ~it's so easy to find yourself in various positions that are not ideal or okay. And having the awareness of what you are being subjected to or participating in so important. I think for, ~you know, ~a long time in my experience, I wasn't maybe as introspective or I was, but I didn't have the perspective that I now do where I can ~kind of ~see the clear linear progression of, of things that have happened in my career and the way that I've [01:00:00] And if you can be very clear with your boundaries and not putting up for, ~um, you know, ~the things that we're all aware of,~ like,~ don't take those unpaid internships. always get things in writing. really important one. get things in writing. Phone conversations don't count in the real world.

Unfortunately, they can tell you all you want, but it matter if it's not written down.

Jake: Absolutely, Chris. I think, ~you know, ~respecting yourself,~ um,~ as a way of showing others how you deserve and, and want to be treated is, is a hugely important part of this. And even though there were a lot of struggles over the course of your career. One of the things that you have done is, ~you know, ~is stand up and, and voiced when you felt, ~you know, ~very frequently that, that you were in a, in a situation that was unfair or unjust.

And I think that's really important for,~ um,~ [01:01:00] everyone to do because, ~you know, ~that will, it, it to some small degree elevate, ~you know, ~the quality of, of treatment across the industry. And,~ uh,~ it's important to, to use that as a, as a lens. it ha it, it really starts with respecting yourself.

Chris: I think

I. That conversations in the university setting are particularly so important because going out into the profession and having this knowledge about things that do happen is a way of prevention. When I was in school, you'd hear things through the grapevine. But in a formalized session where there's discussion that is being led in a formal way, I think makes a huge difference. And it would go a long way of changing the mindset of will become our future leaders in this industry.

Erin: Yeah. Hearing that it's not okay. Absolutely. ~Um, ~I think you did a great job of, of having to adapt and advocate for [01:02:00] yourself and stand up for yourself and make a move when you needed to. And also it sounds like you've got some great support systems and support networks in your life that, that help with that.

But not everyone, ~you know, ~is able to, to have those things, particularly when starting out. And I think it's really easy to normalize. Things that shouldn't be normalized. And I think that's happened far too long. Um, you know, red lines is a way for us to try to put some of that out there. We cannot thank you enough for being a part of this, for having the courage to tell your story stories.

~Um, ~again, this just feels like a, a battering of, of a series of, of betrayals, and it's still really great to hear the care and passion and perspective that you have even after what's happened to you, um, in thinking about how it can be productive for others who come after you. So we can't thank you enough.

This has been incredibly, ~uh, ~cathartic,~ uh,~ hopefully as much for you as it's been for us. And,~ um, ~yeah, we, we really appreciate you taking the time. [01:03:00] I.

Chris: Thank you.

Jake Rudin: If you enjoyed this episode of Redlines, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Don't forget to check out the show notes for relevant links, resources, and other information related to today's story that we hope will help you in your own journey. If you want to hear more of these stories, consider supporting us as an Out of Architecture Patreon subscriber, where you'll have access to exclusive Out of Architecture content, our private community, and more.

Erin Pellegrino: And if you or someone you know has a story that you'd like to hear on an episode of Redlines, please send us an email at redlines at outofarchitecture. com. Thanks for listening. [01:04:00]