Red Lines S1 E2
===

Guest: [00:00:00] he wasn't happy at all about the fact that I was invited to a conference.

I did not expect such a bad reaction.

He was actually saying that he doesn't know how I would speak and how I would present myself. ~ um,~ that also he doesn't know . if I'm even suitable for presenting this because I'm not the typical face of the company ~because obviously~ regarding my gender

and ethnicity~ ~~, ~~or I don't ~~represent the typical employee of that company.~

Erin Pellegrino: This is Redlines by OutOfArchitecture. The experiences that isolate us in our working world are also the stories that can unite our community and allow us to heal. In this series, we dive deeper into the core issues that plague the design profession and evaluate how they result in everyday conflict, discomfort, and workplace turmoil.

The Mission of Redlines and the Hosts' Background
---

Jake Rudin: We are your hosts, Jake Rudin and Aaron Pellegrino, the founders of OutofArchitecture, a career resource network for architects and designers looking to find greater fulfillment in their work and help navigating the many challenges within the profession.[00:01:00] Through our work, we've spoken with thousands of individuals, all with unique pathways and experiences.

Erin Pellegrino: Too often in this work, we encounter stories of struggle, tension, and suffering. Redlines seeks to bring a voice to these stories. Those privately endured in a school or workplace, but often clouded by shame, self doubt, and the questioning of one's professional choices. With each episode, we will ask a member of our community to share their story, we'll offer some guidance and advice, and discuss ways to move forward.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed or replaced with pseudonyms. Their stories, however, are all too real.

Introducing the Guest: Natasha's Struggles in the Architecture Profession
---

Jake Rudin: In this episode, we are speaking with Natasha, who is coming to us with two specific narratives related to her experiences working abroad in Switzerland for a very big name firm, but one that at the same time has not proven to be quite challenging for her [00:02:00] in a number of ways. So Natasha, welcome to Red Lines. It's very nice to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us to share your. ~ ~

Guest: ~Yeah.~ Hello everyone. So my name is Natasha, and I'm here to share my story, which~ um,~ occurred last year and this year as well a little bit.

The Conference Invitation and the Office's Reaction
---

Guest: ~Um, ~in September, I, got an invite from a very prominent,~ ~ Dutch University. They were organizing a conference on new technology and new design technology, for the architectural field, but also about,~ um,~ not just design technology, but also AI and novel ways of dealing with the, the architectural field.

Also theoretically, but also how do you use those tools in practice? And that's, that was not just an academic,~ um,~ conference, but also a conference which was trying to bridge the gap between~ academia and research, ~academia and~ and~ practice. ~Um,~ therefore they thought because my [00:03:00] field or my expertise is,~ ~computational design and architecture, and I work mainly in practice in, projects itself.

So I'm not just writing tools for other people, but I'm actually using those tools and workflows for projects and trying to embed them with the architectural and construction knowledge I have. So they, they thought that I would be a suitable candidate for speaking at this conference. and they wanted me to.

Present projects where I have been,~ ~developing computational design workflows along with all the technical coordination and along with,~ the, you ~you know, embedding it into the different architectural phases and,~ and, um,~ along with developing,~ um,~ detailing and construction methodology. So it's ~kind of ~a holistic approach.

Conference - Added from future
---

Jake Rudin: what had you been working on that you felt led to this opportunity and why did you feel like it was such an important, once in a lifetime chance for you to, ~kind of ~go to this conference and present?

Guest: ~So, um, ~[00:04:00] the projects I've been working on prior to getting the invitation were, quite mixed. So they were, some of them dealt with data management also wrote some scripts to~ to~ manage data in like big Revit models. So that was one part of my work, but also complex geometry. So I worked on a big museum project where the entire facade was developed using Brasshopper and Python ~And~ it was a really interesting outcome and the partner and all my colleagues they were quite happy with the results.

So I think,~ um,~ that the work and, and the projects I've been working on were quite representative and they were quite interesting and diverse in terms of how you could use computational thinking. That's why I felt

that it was a very suitable platform. So they really felt that,~ um,~ that I would be a suitable candidate for speaking on behalf of my company I was working [00:05:00] for. ~ ~ And I was initially quite excited about the invite and I really felt honored and I felt like finally someone's actually recognizing and appreciating,~ uh,~ the work I've been doing outside of my

Listen to just some of the skills that she mentions there... AI, computational deisgn, construction knowledge, academia and research, workflow, technical coordination, complex geometry, big data, programs like grasshopper and python... an Architect learns so many skills in their job but we hear the same stories again and again of being underappreciated and undervalued, but in some cases it es even worse than this... (alluding to discrimination)
---

Guest: office.

Erin Pellegrino: Listen to just some of the skills that are mentioned there. Computational design, construction knowledge, the desire to bridge academia and research with practice, and technical coordination just to name a few. As architects, we learn and employ so many skills in our jobs, but we do hear the same stories time and time again of being underappreciated and undervalued.

But in some cases, it gets even worse than this.

Guest: ~I mean, ~in my office I did not get so much of recognition. ~Um, ~I actually asked the, professor who had invited me to send me an official letter because I have to ask permission. ~Um, ~not just from the, uh, ~ uh,~ the, the team, leaders and the~ ~PMs I've been working with and the clients, but also from the office itself, because at [00:06:00] the end, it's, it's, it belongs to the office.

So they need to need to be involved in it. they need to be aware of it. And I actually thought that they would be quite excited about it too. ~Um, ~so when I got this invite, I forwarded to the partner in charge I was working for at that time, but he did not respond. And the professor was asking me what the status is and when can he,~ um,~ expect an answer.

And he was really excited about having me at the conference because,~ um,~ the company and the designs are very well known and he was really excited about, ~um.~ The designs and the workflows being presented. ~So, um, ~after I did not get a response from the partner for a few days,~ um, ~the professor actually called the partner directly to speak to him.

So only then the partner got in touch with me and we had a short VC.~ and Um, ~I showed him a draft presentation or like an idea of what we could present. Of course, we have to coordinate that internally. I cannot just [00:07:00] present whatever I feel is suitable, but they have to approve of it.

The Unfortunate Outcome of the Conference Invitation
---

Guest: And he wasn't happy at all about the fact that I was invited to a conference.

He was actually saying that he doesn't know how I would speak and how I would present myself. And,~ um,~ that also he doesn't know . if I'm even suitable for presenting this because I'm not the face of the company or let's say not the typical face of the company because obviously regarding my gender and ethnicity, I don't fit into, or I don't represent the typical employee of that company.

Erin Pellegrino: ~ , I think that makes a, a, a ton of sense and also just shows , a general, Um, sophistication and, and seriousness with which you approach seriousness your work and your career and your role in, in the profession as as the, the organization. I wanna. Ask an emotional question, um, which is really about, ~ can you talk about that emotional side, the emotional toll it took of, of seeking permission from your employer to speak at the conference and the initial rejection that, that you faced, and~ and maybe expand on that a bit.~

Guest: when I was initially talking to the professor, I was quite excited, but I already told him that I have to ask for permission. I cannot just. Take my projects and go [00:08:00] and present because ~I mean, ~that's not possible. ~We can't just, um, I mean~ from work ethics point of view, I, think it has to be agreed with the employer.

It has to be negotiated with the people involved in the project because at the end, that work doesn't belong to me. It belongs to the office even if I have worked on it. So I knew I have to ask for permission and,~ um,~ I knew it would not be super easy, but I did not expect such a bad reaction.

they were not, happy at all about the fact that I had been invited there. They were not like, proud about the fact that someone is actually me. inviting the office. They should see it as an invitation to the office and not . A personal invitation to me. ~I mean, I mean, yes, I have worked on it, but they should have been happy about the fact that their office is being represented in a certain way.~

~So it was, ~I knew that it will not be easy and I was also a bit scared to ask, scared in the sense that I knew that this might not be approved. But I did not expect to hear the reasons I heard. ~ ~you cannot represent us. That is actually what upset me. ~I ~[00:09:00] if they had said that,~ um,~ we don't want to be represented in a design technology way.

We are more a design oriented office. I think that would have made sense for me. um, And ~I would have, ~I would not have been upset after hearing this explanation, but the fact that they actually explained their decision by saying that you can't go there, you cannot represent us. That's what really was upsetting.

Jake Rudin: ~Um, I'd be curious to hear additional thoughts on that as well as ~ were there other instances of this kind of thing at the firm to your knowledge?

Guest: Yeah. so,~ So, um. ~The fact that I heard this from two sides that you can't represent us or you are not the face of the company is something I found very clear in terms of the,~ ~ agenda behind it. And I had been told before as well that you, we cannot promote you to senior architect because that would mean you would represent us and you can't represent us.

So that's like something which is,~ um,~ an ongoing or [00:10:00] reoccurring explanation that makes me think that yes, it must be because of my gender and my ethnicity, because what else is the reason? It's not my work. It's not my lack of experience or anything. I mean, I,~ I mean, ~I have been working for 14 years almost. And,~ um,~ so they don't have any, any explanation which is objective or which can be measured. Like you don't have the experience or you don't have the skills. So it's not about that. It's really about me as a person, my ethnicity.

That's not what they say, but this is what it implies. Otherwise, Otherwise, what does it mean you're not the face of the company? Who's the face? I mean, yes, of course, it's maybe just one person,~ ~but that doesn't mean that all that work is done by one person. So everyone knows that there are many people behind such a big firm.

and They also go out and speak. I mean there are many people speaking outside, so if you say that you are not the [00:11:00] face, you cannot represent us. ~I mean, ~this is very clear.

So that really hurt me, that comment. But also he said that nobody would benefit from such an event and from such a presentation except me, and that the company would not,~ um,~ benefit from it at all. And I don't believe that, and I wasn't doing that for myself only, I was also doing that because I felt that it would actually put the company in a different position and it's an opportunity for them to also represent their other, other sides besides design and besides aesthetics, also presenting their design technology side.

So I was actually quite surprised, but also upset by the comments. And he then said that I should actually talk to the design technology department because this is a design technology topic and I'm not of that department. So he immediately forwarded that letter to the head of design technology,

[00:12:00] Immediately called me and asked me how I got even invited and who sent me that invite. So he was also not happy about it. ~ ~ he was even thinking like that they should send someone else because I'm not in their department and I cannot represent their department. ~Um, ~or maybe if, if they can't find anyone else, or maybe someone needs to come with me because I cannot go there by myself and I cannot represent,~ ~the firm.

But then, finally the person who is in charge of taking the decision. Responded to me saying that I cannot take part in that conference because I'm not part of his department. And I also don't have the qualification to speak about computational design, even if I think it's my expertise. It's not my expertise because it's just my false belief

and secondly, I cannot represent the firm to the outside. And I was quite disturbed by [00:13:00] the statement because I have heard that a few times also from the partner and now from the head of design technology. So I really wanted to understand what he means by me not being able to represent the company to the outside.

INSERT COMMENT about sexism and racism. I don't feel qualified enough or knowledgeable enough to add anything exact.
---

Erin Pellegrino: At this point, the question of why Natasha cannot represent the firm has come to a head. Why are so many people in leadership at this place so against her attending this conference? Natasha, having gotten no satisfactory responses to this question, finally decides to voice it directly. Assuming the worst that this is because she's not white, not male, and perhaps even not Swiss enough to represent this company or the technical design team that she has worked at for years.

Guest: questioned the statement and I asked him directly if it's because of my ethnicity and my gender. ~Uh, ~and he did not respond, but in, in return he got really offended. But he didn't say Why I can't [00:14:00] represent the company.

I'm quite sure that he was quite offended by the fact that it's not him who was invited, but someone who's not even in his department. But they did not really give it a chance and they should have used the chance because it's also beneficial for them to represent themselves to the outside.

But ~they, yeah, they, and~ I actually took this quite personally because it was, the decision they took was based on me as a person as well on my qualification. and the fact that I'm not suitable for representing the company. And I think that's quite dangerous to say something like that. ~Um, ~considering, um,~ um, yeah, ~the whole topic of inclusion and the whole topic of, uh,~ of, uh, um, ~having, uh, you know, a~ you know, ~company which, which includes all and where gender and ethnicity and background doesn't play a role, but that's, that's not even the fact for this company.

So I'm not surprised actually by what they said, but it still [00:15:00] upset me a lot because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity in my opinion.

Jake Rudin: In your conversations with the partner around this conference,~ um,~ you asked some very. Pointed and, and very valuable questions around gender and ethnicity. And although he refused to answer, there was certainly,~ uh,~ an inference made and almost an implication that,~ uh,~ a lot of this was you looking different than the majority of the firm.

Erin Pellegrino: It's a bit of a zero sum game in the, sense that there's no way to, there's nothing, nothing you can do about as a person, how~ how you~ you present. There's obviously things you could do about your skillset and your talent, but that doesn't, doesn't seem to be an issue here.

Unfortunately, with our work at Out of Architecture, we do see this time and time again. Not only the narrative of the lone, genius st architect taking all of the credit, but the more insidious and systemic issues beset by a profession that is largely dominated by those [00:16:00] who are white and those who are male.

In this case, this firm is no different. However, at the entry level within architecture, these numbers are much more diverse, which means that as we go up in the ladder into leadership, And as Natasha experiences here, we see less and less diversity. While there may be many reasons for this, it does seem clear that in this case, this firm believed that someone like Natasha had no place in their leadership.

And although proved to be a valuable member of the team, preferred that she do her work silently and in the background.

INSERT COMMENT about the lack of inclusion in some architect firms and how disappointing that is considering how many architects are non male and non white.
---

Guest: ~ ~

~Um, ~ and so the second incident, which happened.

Exploring the Possibility of a PhD and the Office's Response
---

Guest: Very much after the conference incident or like just within a gap of a few weeks so I've been looking for,~ um,~ an academic career, or let's say I've been looking for suitable PhD positions, for quite some time~ ~because I feel that there is a lot to gain from [00:17:00] academic research.

And for me it has always been important to say that I want to bridge the gap between academia and practice. because I think there is a big gap and they can both benefit from each other.

~So, um, ~ I saw this PhD opening, Advertised by a very big and prominent,~ uh,~ Swiss University. And,~ um, ~I've spent quite a few days actually developing my research proposal. And there were quite a few documents, ~uh, ~required, such as a video statement and where I will explain my research proposal.

And I had to also understand first what's the agenda, the exact agenda of that department, and how can I implement my skills and my, my interests and how can that also be linked back to practice? So~ it was quite, I mean, ~writing a research proposal is quite tough. It's not an easy thing. ~Um, ~so after applying, like I think a couple of days later, I already got a call.

~Um, ~asking for a short interview. ~ ~I think it was [00:18:00] just a 30 minute interview where I was,~ um,~ supposed to present myself, but also answer a few initial questions about the research proposal. ~Um, ~and that was on a Thursday and on a Friday,~ um,~ the professor actually came to the city I was working and living in, and she wanted to meet me in person.

So obviously I was very excited and I was thinking that this is a real chance and it could really happen, that I could get ~ um,~ this position. ~Um, ~so we were talking and it was a very nice conversation because I felt that we are like, On one level in terms of ~the~ shortcomings of the practice, but also how academia can benefit from practice and vice versa.

~Um, ~so in the end she asked me, so what would you do,~ um,~ with your job if I would offer you this PhD? I said, of course I would need to resign. ~Um, ~that's out of question I cannot do both at once. And ~uh, ~for me, I would then just focus on the PhD. And for me, that was not something I would even think about, like how to do it because it's obvious I have to resign [00:19:00] for taking up,~ up an~ an academic career.

~Um, ~and then she suggested ~like, ~let's not do that. ~ ~in terms of, let's don't resign, but you could actually combine ~uh, ~the academic research you would do with the . Real life project taking place at your firm. So combining research and practice in a very practical way, like doing a PhD where I'm like, let's say two days I'm at the university, at the department and then three days I'm in the office.

So I would still be employed, but I was do, I PhD, which has,~ um,~ a big practical part. And I would actually use a ongoing project as, as perhaps as a case study to develop my, my Ph. D. ~ um,~ I mean it's a great idea and this is also something I've been always fascinated about or let's say I've been thinking that this could be really beneficial for both parties.

But,~ ~because I had already experienced a [00:20:00] few things with the office, also the conference, and I was not entirely sure if that would be a great idea. I didn't expect the office to be super happy about this idea, but I didn't say anything because I felt like if I would say, no, let's not do that, I would lose my opportunity.

~So, um, ~she also suggested that, let's maybe give a lecture at the office and then we can see how people think about these ideas and how people respond, what questions are asked.

This is an amazing opportunity for an architect - to study and work, and also an amazing opportunity for the company, to connect with a major university and be part of a PHD project and have one of their staff upskill. But, after the conference incident you an maybe imagine the reaction to this idea...
---

Erin Pellegrino: This is an amazing opportunity for any professional to study and work, and is also an amazing opportunity for the company to connect with a major university and be a part of a Ph. D. project and have one of their staff upskill. As we'll hear later, this is also not uncommon in many other fields.

But after the conference incident, you can perhaps imagine the company's reaction to this idea.

Guest: [00:21:00] ~um, ~I tried to send her request of,~ um,~ giving a lecture to a few people who would we have, like this academy, a department.

~ ~who would actually plan this and organize this. So I sent her details and her like biography and short description of what she would talk about to that department, but they didn't respond and they said that they have such a big, ~big,~ like, list of all already,~ um,~ planned,~ um,~ talks and lectures.

So it's not possible to have it in anytime soon. So that's what I told her, that this might take some time, this might take ~like ~six months until they have a chance for you to give a lecture. So then she said like that she knows someone, ~um, ~in the office and that she would contact him directly.~ um,~

And before she decided to,~ uh,~ contact him, she actually invited me to her,~ uh,~ department and I gave a short introduction about myself and about the work [00:22:00] I do. now already felt that this is a real chance because she also introduced me to her team. And,~ uh,~ I was,~ uh,~ I was asked to do a short presentation on myself and how I use digital technologies and these tools and projects.

~ ~After that meeting, she said she would actually send,~ um,~ ~ uh,~ an email to the partner, the partner she's acquainted with. ~Um, ~and she asked me can you please edit your research proposal, make it a bit shorter so I can send it along. ~Um, ~

The Unraveling of the PhD Opportunity
---

Guest: however, when she sent it to the partner, she did not put me in cc and she also removed my name from the research proposal.

So it looked ~like ~as if she had written it, but actually it was my research proposal, which I had originally written for,~ ~ my application. ~Um,~ she actually also did not mention in that email that I had applied for a PhD, but she said that she met me at a conference in Stuttgart, which was a conference about [00:23:00] complex geometries and, a conference about,~ um,~

New developments in architecture. So I already felt that it's a bit strange that she's not being open about and, honest about,~ uh,~ how we met and how things took place. And she did not mention my name, but she described me. So it was clear to everyone in the partner level that it's me. ~Um, ~ in the end, they, the partners, they have ~like ~a board meeting where they, they discussed this idea and initially they were quite excited about it, ~ um,~ but they, um, also directly forwarded the research proposal and that email to the design technology department.

~Um, ~and. They, they also knew it's that it's me who's being described in her email. And,~ um, ~everyone in that design technology department, once they got to know about this incident that I went to a conference and once they found out about the fact that,~ uh,~ the professor is suggesting me to [00:24:00] be part of the research project, they all got quite pissed off.

And they started making comments like, what is she doing at conferences? She's not in our department. Why is she even talking to people outside? And, all kinds of comments. I just got to know a few who had that kind of tonality. Um,~ Um, ~that why is she there? What is she doing there who asked her to go there?

And actually, ~Um, ~the office did not pay for it. I went there by myself. I took holidays. I bought my train ticket. I bought my conference tickets. It was like, as if I go somewhere to just educate myself and I'm not asking for reimbursement. I'm not asking. So that's why I also need, don't need to ask anyone before I go, because it's like me going on a holiday.

It's, it's my decision. So that's, that's what I feel like I'm, they should be happy that I'm educating myself in my free time. But actually it was the opposite. They were like quite, ~quite, um,~ upset about the fact that I'm going to conferences where they should be [00:25:00] going. ~I mean~ I actually expected that there might be some sort of an excitement that, hey, we have a great employee got in touch with a professor and she managed to create attention with someone at a prominent Swiss university. So they were not excited or happy at all. It was the opposite. ~Um, ~so finally, once this proposal and the idea was discussed, they decided to have a meeting with . the professor and the partner and the head of design technology.

~Um, ~that was at like in the beginning of December. ~Um, ~they met in order to discuss the proposal, she did tell me about it. And she did also say that we will meet after the meeting so she could update me. ~Um, ~I was of course not invited,~ um,~ which I already felt is a bit strange because I was actually being proposed as the one doing that research.

~Um,~ and during the meeting, or even before,~ um,~ the design [00:26:00] technology department had actually openly communicated that they did not want me to be part of this project and they would not want to work with me. ~Um, ~and that, they also don't want this to be a PhD. ~I ~mean, that's, I think if you can, ~ ~explain that objectively, it's fine, but they actually

I Did not want it to be a PhD because it would mean that it's the, knowledge and the skills are with one person, but I think that's just an excuse.

You could still do a research, project,~ a~ collaborative PhD between a research and a practice. And still everyone would benefit from the knowledge.

~I mean, ~that's also if someone does a PhD at a, at a department, it's not that the knowledge is just with that particular person who has done the PhD, but it's actually with the department.

Jake Rudin: The logic from, from both her side and the firm's side is very interesting and a little bit suspect. But at the same time, ~You know, ~I'm coming to this [00:27:00] conversation with a little bit of a, a, different perspective. Having seen so many PhD students working through their PhDs within the context of Adidas, that information is co-owned by the company and the university in so many ways. And even though one individual certainly is ending with a degree and a credential that they can carry with them, that person also shoulders a huge amount of the burden when it comes to the work. But that doesn't mean that. The individual is the only one holding onto the knowledge. In fact, a big stipulation of doing these kinds of joint PhDs is that the information is shared jointly, both through white papers, through presentations, through publications, through work with internal departments, departments within the university, and so on. ~Um, ~I think it's an absolute,[00:28:00] ~ uh, you know, ~manipulation that the company has said, oh no, that, ~you know, ~the reason why we don't want this person involved is, you know, to safeguard, you know, ourselves.~ ~

Guest: ~So, ~so after that meeting, ~um.~

She actually, ~ um, ~didn't meet me. She wanted to meet me in order to discuss the outcome, but she left immediately saying that she's in a rush and she has to leave. ~Um, ~ but she would keep me updated, she did not respond to any of my questions about that meeting or.

Questions about how to proceed. And then one day I actually asked her if I could call her, and then she, she said, no. ~Uh, ~and that she will not be able to conduct the PhD with me and the department, and that she has no other vacancies. But actually before that, when I met her at the department, she actually had said that If that doesn't work out, you can still work with me.

I still want to work with you and I want to employ you at the, at my department. I was very, very upset with the outcome, not just [00:29:00] with the way my office,~ uh,~ represented me to her, that they don't, want to work with me. They don't want me to be part of this, but also how she has used me in order to get close to the office.

And now it starts to make sense why her name was taken of the proposal and why this professor didn't involve her in the meeting, left in such a hurry AND then wanted nothing to do with her. Incidents like this are all too common in architecture leaving good professionals frustrated (IDK is this true?)
---

Erin Pellegrino: And now it starts to make sense why her name was taken off of the proposal, and why this professor didn't involve her in the meeting, left in such a hurry, and then wanted nothing to do with her. As one can imagine, incidents like this leave hardworking professionals feeling frustrated, undervalued, and keep the profession siloed and disconnected.

Exactly the opposite of what Natasha was hoping to achieve with this PhD proposal. I think she just wanted to get into the limelight of the architectural and construction world and link herself with a practice, which is quite prominent, which is very much always in the news for their great designs and their great projects.

Guest: I. was so shocked about this [00:30:00] behavior coming from an academic background because I always used to believe that professors and academic staff they don't play these politics or they don't play these games as, as we see in offices.

But I was, I was really wrong about this.,~ um, ~ I've been seeing quite a few,~ um,~ Instagram and LinkedIn posts about how they are collaborating and it really upsets me and I see that That was her whole intention. She just used me basically to get in touch with the office and to establish herself like a relationship with the office.

So when I see that, and they also represented in a way, especially my, previous office, they represented in a way as if it was hard work for them and their achievement to get in touch with her and to get her on board. And I feel like this is my PhD idea ~I mean, ~I brought that in, but I was kicked out like [00:31:00] immediately.

And I think that's quite upsetting.

Jake Rudin: I wonder if you can talk a little bit more, delve into the moment when your research proposal was altered without your consent and then the subsequent challenges, with trying to. Keep a grasp on this project as it ~sort of ~became one,~ um,~ that the professor was stealing from you in many ways.

Guest: when I met her at her department, she just casually asked me to edit the proposal and send it over to her so she could send it along with the research, ~um,~ with the idea of doing a, like a collaborative PhD. So she wanted to take that proposal and then ~kind of, ~I ~kind of ~lost track of what's happening in the background because,~ um,~ they excluded me immediately. the design technology department did not want me to be part of this. And obviously it seemed like she had written that proposal and not me.

But then when I asked [00:32:00] someone, he said, it's none of your business and do you have nothing to do with it. it, it belongs to the office now. It has you, it doesn't belong to you. So I feel like, ~I mean, ~It's always going to be a joint effort, but that proposal was my idea and was based on what I had learned from practice and also what her research agenda was.

So it was trying to combine these two, ~I ~I mean, now I can't prove it that, ~I ~I mean, I can prove that I have written it and she altered it, removed my name, perhaps removed a few sentences, but I don't know what my rights are in that sense, like it does feel like stealing because she didn't even mention my name in that

email. And she removed my name from the proposal, so it did feel like someone had betrayed me or someone had me.

Erin Pellegrino: ~or on my side,~ from my opinion or on my side, as someone who's spent some time in, academia, I do not have experience with a PhD nor do I work with PhD candidates.~ nor do~ But, I [00:33:00] do read for a series of, master programs and their applications as well as teach at the,~ programs and their and the~ undergraduate and the graduate level. it sounds pretty much like a textbook definition of, of plagiarism.~ a textbook definition ~it's taking someone else's I idea, changing, you know, the wording a bit and changing the name and then submitting that, to another party for review. to some extent there's, there's really no way for you to know this, but I wonder, . how much do you think the professor's change in, in tone and change in way of dealing with you was due to pressure, perhaps from the firm, given everything that they had said to you~ that~ whenever you had tried to bring your ideas, your computational skills or things like that to them, do you think that there could have been any influence there, in the removal of your name or do you think she never even shared? .

~ ~

Guest: At the beginning, I did not feel so upset about it because she said that I didn't want to put you into trouble, that's why I removed your name.

[00:34:00] It only changed after they all met and there's a chance that this was her decision of not working with me was influenced by the design technology department because they must have said something like, we are not going to work with her, or she's like this or that.

~So, ~but this is all just my,~ um,~ impression or my, my thoughts. Maybe they said that we can only collaborate if I am not part of it. Maybe that's something they have said, but I can't really guarantee that this has been discussed .

Jake Rudin: Do you think that the professor would be proud of the way that this project started? If we asked her, do you think she would defend her use of your research proposal in beginning of this collaboration, which is now publicly lauded as a mutual collaboration between [00:35:00] this big name university and this big name firm?

Guest: Are you trying to say if she would regret doing what she did

I don't think so. I, did feel that she's a bit unscrupulous in this way, but now just looking back also, the fact that she did not say the truth, how we met, that already made me a bit suspicious. ~I mean, ~why would you lie about it? ~ ~ ~ ~

Jake Rudin: having told the story again,~ uh,~ in full, and thinking through the process and hearing Aaron use the word plagiarism, do you feel like this is a defensible start to the project, or do you feel like this is breaking some ethical boundaries on behalf of the professor?

Guest: ~I mean, ~I definitely think it's unethical what she did, but

probably she would not admit to

having acted

unethically.

But from my point of view, definitely, but I'm not sure if she feels the same about it.

Erin Pellegrino: No, and there's, there's no way to [00:36:00] know for sure, right?

Guest: in the , end of December also, there was another incident

Even after being potentailly subjected to sexism and racism over their refusal to allow her to speak a tconference, then being blocked from doing a PHD due to her company AND the professor, there was incredbily still another incident that was unbeliavable for an architect of this expertise...
---

Guest: ~So, um,~

Erin Pellegrino: Even after being subjected to sexism and racism over their refusal to allow her to speak at the conference, then being blocked from doing a Ph. D. by her company and the professor who then took the idea and collaborated with the firm regardless, there was, incredibly, yet one more incident that resulted in Natasha realizing that she needed to make a change.

Keep in mind that at this point, she is 14 years into practice as an architect. She has brought accolades to the firm, technical expertise, been personally recognized within the field, established workflows within the company, and used her own personal time to improve herself and her skillset.

Natasha finally asks about a promotion to senior architect.

Guest: We always have promotions in December, so I asked the partner I was working for, if finally they would promote me to a [00:37:00] senior architect after working for 14 years. ~I mean, ~they say it's eight years, but in the end, um,~ um.~

I was still not senior architect, even though I had 14 years of work experience. And then he said no, they would not,~ um,~ promote me because the design technology department has convinced him that I'm not a good person, uh, that I create issues wherever I go. ~Um,~ and that I should not be put into any project where I would be able to use my computational design skills.

So they were ~kind of ~pointing it to my personality. So at the end I felt that because ~had kind ~they had kind of blocked my career in terms of I can't be promoted, I can't do the work I enjoy the most and also I can't further develop.

The Impact of the Experiences on Natasha's Career
---

Guest: As a result of all these developments, I decided to leave the office because I felt like there's no space for me here [00:38:00] and there's no way I can develop personally, and also my skills cannot develop because I won't be put into a suitable project.

~Um, ~that's what, led to my resignation in the end of January. And since then,~ uh, ~I've been actually able to implement my skills in some other context.

Jake Rudin: ~Well, ~Well, Natasha, thank you so much for sharing your story. I think there are so many,~ uh,~ twists and turns and after so much experience in so many years as a single firm, especially having created, ~you know, ~an area where you Could succeed in developing your expertise, both within the context of work as well as in your personal time. It's a real shame to see how that was received on the end of the firm.

Erin Pellegrino: Looking back. How have these negative experiences, both the employment side and the academic side, how have they shaped your perspective on the architecture and design professions [00:39:00] and your aspirations for the future?

Guest: it, hasn't impacted me in the way that I would leave my expertise behind I would just start working as a traditional architect. So that's not what the result was. So I'm still very much. Within that field, and I will always pursue this part of the field. So in that way, my expertise or my, , career trajectory has not been impacted.

But what it has impacted is the fact that I resigned. I realized that there's no space for me in this firm, and that basically all doors have been closed, not by myself, but by people not letting me do what I really want to do. ~ I ~ And I've never been part of like office politics. So I've, I've always stayed out of it. And,~ um,~ but in the past few years I've become, I mean, this sounds really~ I ~a bit tragic, but I've become a victim of it because, um,~ um. ~People were not happy [00:40:00] with what I was doing because maybe they felt that it proves their own shortcomings.

At least that's ~kind of ~my impression now, by also hearing other stories, similar stories from that department. So it's not, I'm not the only one. And there are other people as well, experiencing these kind of things where they are really talented or they're really good at something and they are being muted because it actually reveals shortcomings of someone else who's in a higher position.

In that sense, it has changed my perspective, but it definitely has not changed my career trajectory or what I want to specialize on.~ I want to~ which I think is,

Reflections and Advice for Others in the Profession
---

Erin Pellegrino: , both fantastic and I'm sorry that it has pushed you to that, but the fact that it has not changed what drives you And what you're excited about and what contributions you can have to the field.~ you can have~ I'm, I'm glad [00:41:00] that this has not discouraged that

you started to talk about the fact that you're not the only person that you know that has experienced things like this. and I'm wondering, what advice can you offer to others who may face similar challenges in their careers on either side, the working side or the professional side and the academia side?

Guest: ~I mean, ~I mean, what I have learned from this and what I want to also communicate is that your skills and your talents are not your shortcomings. In a way, it's maybe the environment which is not correct for you. So if you find the right environment, you can also develop further and people will be happy about you implementing your skills because they will appreciate the outcome and not be Scared by you representing them or you being better than them and I think the environment really matters. And if you find the right environment, the right people, [00:42:00] and with the right colleagues you can be yourself.

You can pursue your passion and develop further and implement your skills for the benefit of the project.

It's, it's difficult to find the right context and the right environment, but it's also important and maybe painful to realize that this is not the right context and the right people.

Jake Rudin: ~And~ Natasha, thank you so much for joining us on Red Lines and sharing your story.

Guest: Thank

you.​

Jake Rudin: If you enjoyed this episode of Redlines, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Don't forget to check out the show notes for relevant links, resources, and other information related to today's story that we hope will help you in your own journey. If you want to hear more of these stories, consider supporting us as an Out of Architecture Patreon subscriber, where you'll have access to exclusive Out of Architecture content, our private community, and more.[00:43:00]

Erin Pellegrino: And if you or someone you know has a story that you'd like to hear on an episode of Redlines, please send us an email with a summary at redlines at outofarchitecture. com. Thanks for listening.